Transgender MEGATHREAD

[Admiral Yi]

To spare the feelings of offended Euro Cup fans and to respond to Jake.

Yes, I do think identifying as a gender other than your own is a choice.

I don't see how it can be a biological imperative, in the way that homosexuality is an imperative.  Sexual arousal is a physical response, and as has been demonstrated, homosexual arousal exists in the animal kingdom.  Identifying as a gender is an intellectual activity, since as has been pointed out "gender" is a social construct, a basket of expectations, tendencies, norms, etc.

That leaves the possibility of a pyschological imperative, which is perhaps where the real debate lies.  In the olden days (i.e. when Silence of the Lambs was written) sex change clinics would screen applicants for suitability, which of course means not every applicant was considered suitable.  Was it because they weren't sincere enough?  Too frivolous?

That contrasts with the present day when it seems not that hard to find a doctor who will prescribe hormone blockers to adolescents.

[viper37]

That leaves the possibility of a pyschological imperative, which is perhaps where the real debate lies.  In the olden days (i.e. when Silence of the Lambs was written) sex change clinics would screen applicants for suitability, which of course means not every applicant was considered suitable.  Was it because they weren't sincere enough?  Too frivolous?

That contrasts with the present day when it seems not that hard to find a doctor who will prescribe hormone blockers to adolescents.

Hormone blockers are supposed to be temporary and have no lasting effects, hence why the doctors will prescribe it.  Just like they prescribe anti-depressant and recommend the patient to undergo therapy/counseling.  With the blockers it theoritically gives time to the teen to explore his/her feelings with a psy.

Modern psychology avoids confronting people.  If you see a shrink and tell him all your co-workers are plotting against you, he won't try to dissuade you of that line of thought, unless you exhibit violent tendancies (murder or suicide thoughts).

There lies the problem, imho: You see a shrink, tell it you feel like you're really a woman born in a man's body and there will be zero contradiction.  And I kinda feel like we see much more transgenders in places where homosexuality is still perceived as sinful.  A man is attracted to other man?  It must be because he's really a woman, then it's totally normal, heteronormative to love men.

I feel like there aren't a ton of serious studies on gender dysphoria, and there's a serious over-diagnosis going on.

[merithyn]

FWIW, every transgender person that I know (and I know a fair few), it has minimal impact on their sexual preferences. I am/was good friends with three MtoF people, two of whom are still attracted primarily to women just like they were before they started transitioning. So I'm not really in line with your assertion that it's an excuse to be gay.

Totally ignoring the fact that in most places now it's a hell of a lot easier to be gay than transgender. 

[Admiral Yi]

FWIW, every transgender person that I know (and I know a fair few), it has minimal impact on their sexual preferences. I am/was good friends with three MtoF people, two of whom are still attracted primarily to women just like they were before they started transitioning. So I'm not really in line with your assertion that it's an excuse to be gay.

Totally ignoring the fact that in most places now it's a hell of a lot easier to be gay than transgender. 

Who said it's an excuse to be gay? 

[viper37]

FWIW, every transgender person that I know (and I know a fair few), it has minimal impact on their sexual preferences. I am/was good friends with three MtoF people, two of whom are still attracted primarily to women just like they were before they started transitioning. So I'm not really in line with your assertion that it's an excuse to be gay.

It's a not a 100% fact, and it's not an excuse.  More of a way for the brain to reconcile someting that is deeply ingrained as being "wrong".  If you're raised in a social unit that considers homosexuality a mortal sin, there's a lot more chances you'll feel wrong growing up, if you are gay.


There's the spillover effect that is certainly not neglible.  It can happen that a tween or a teen is uncertain of his feelings, his attractions, his identity.  Sometimes, you just feel wrong.  You don't know what you are.  Then society offers you a ready-made solution: you're of the wrong sex.  Everything you feel isn't right with you can be put on this.

Like it or not, for mammalian apes like humans, gender is determined by biology.  Some people are born with two sexes, it happens.  It could also happen that someone is really born with a "female brain" inside a male's body.  But to the extent it is happenning now, I seriously doubt it.  I've never heard of a male gorilla or chimpanzee adopting female behaviour.  There are living things who can be both male&female at different point in their lives.  I think some insects will switch their gender to another if there's a shortage of the other sex for reproduction.  But with apes? Even dogs? Cats? Racoons? Rabbits? Pigs? I don't think any mammal can switch their gender after birth.  Female spotted hyenas have penises like males, but it's not gender dysphoria at all. 

Totally ignoring the fact that in most places now it's a hell of a lot easier to be gay than transgender. 

And in most of these places there will be less transgenders than in more restrictives places.  Like the US, or Brazil, or Iran.
In 2008, the BBC reported that Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognized on the birth certificate.[1] Since 2017, the government has provided transgender persons financial assistance in the form of grants of up to 5 million tomans ($400~ USD

Be a transgender, get financial aid.  Be gay, get stoned to death.

[Barrister]

You know, I have a lot of thoughts about the current moment of transgenderism.  I've even known several TG people.  There's BuddhaRhubarb, of course (who I once met in person pre-transition, and remain FB friends with).  But there was a former sportswriter buddy of my dad who transitioned.  There's a fraternity brother of mine (does that make her my fraternity sister?  but I digress).  My kids former nanny who we still keep in touch with transitioned, then detransitioned.

But I don't know if I'm really qualified to give opinions, and this is a fairly sensitive topic I'm not sure I wish to share my opinions anyways.

But what I do know is my belief that, all other things being equal, we should treat people as they would like to be treated and call them what they would like to be called.

[Syt]

I really wish Buddha was still posting here. I think these are important discussions, but at the end of the day, all of us only have second hand (or further removed) knowledge of the subject. It's like if someone asked me about child raising of which I have no experience. Sure, I have some opinions on it, but at the end of the day they will almost certainly be significantly less well informed than the ones of the parents on the forum.

Doesn't mean this shouldn't be discussed here, but I think it's something worth keeping in mind.

[garbon]

I really wish Buddha was still posting here. I think these are important discussions, but at the end of the day, all of us only have second hand (or further removed) knowledge of the subject. It's like if someone asked me about child raising of which I have no experience. Sure, I have some opinions on it, but at the end of the day they will almost certainly be significantly less well informed than the ones of the parents on the forum.

Doesn't mean this shouldn't be discussed here, but I think it's something worth keeping in mind.

I'm kinda glad Buddha isn't giving some of the childish that appears to repeatedly show up around this topic here.

[Syt]

Well, yeah, there's that too.

[Tamas]

I am on the same page with both Syt and BB and will refrain from discussing the topic.

[Josquius]

FWIW, every transgender person that I know (and I know a fair few), it has minimal impact on their sexual preferences. I am/was good friends with three MtoF people, two of whom are still attracted primarily to women just like they were before they started transitioning. So I'm not really in line with your assertion that it's an excuse to be gay.

On this I've actually seen the transphobes using this as an argument against trans people.
There is data to show gay trans-women are more numerous than cis lesbians.
I guess they figure it shows they're just predators in waiting or something. Though to my mind it does seem to suggest there's some relation between sexuality and being trans. I can't recall ever seeing any solid investigations into this.

That leaves the possibility of a pyschological imperative, which is perhaps where the real debate lies.  In the olden days (i.e. when Silence of the Lambs was written) sex change clinics would screen applicants for suitability, which of course means not every applicant was considered suitable.  Was it because they weren't sincere enough?  Too frivolous?

That contrasts with the present day when it seems not that hard to find a doctor who will prescribe hormone blockers to adolescents.

Hormone blockers are supposed to be temporary and have no lasting effects, hence why the doctors will prescribe it.  Just like they prescribe anti-depressant and recommend the patient to undergo therapy/counseling.  With the blockers it theoritically gives time to the teen to explore his/her feelings with a psy.

I do wonder whether this misconception is key to why so many people are aghast at hormone blockers?
They seem so very common sense to me when you've got a trans kid- put off making the decision until they're old enough to do so.

And in most of these places there will be less transgenders than in more restrictives places.  Like the US, or Brazil, or Iran.
In 2008, the BBC reported that Iran carries out more sex change operations than any other nation in the world except Thailand. The government provides up to half the cost for those needing financial assistance, and a sex change is recognized on the birth certificate.[1] Since 2017, the government has provided transgender persons financial assistance in the form of grants of up to 5 million tomans ($400~ USD

Be a transgender, get financial aid.  Be gay, get stoned to death.

Iran really is fascinating with its outlook on these things.
Its something you'll never see reliable numbers on but I do wonder how many gay guys get registered as trans and to what extent they are able to avoid transitioning.

[Tamas]

FWIW, every transgender person that I know (and I know a fair few), it has minimal impact on their sexual preferences. I am/was good friends with three MtoF people, two of whom are still attracted primarily to women just like they were before they started transitioning. So I'm not really in line with your assertion that it's an excuse to be gay.

On this I've actually seen the transphobes using this as an argument against trans people.
There is data to show gay trans-women are more numerous than cis lesbians.
I guess they figure it shows they're just predators in waiting or something. Though to my mind it does seem to suggest there's some relation between sexuality and being trans. I can't recall ever seeing any solid investigations into this.

That leaves the possibility of a pyschological imperative, which is perhaps where the real debate lies.  In the olden days (i.e. when Silence of the Lambs was written) sex change clinics would screen applicants for suitability, which of course means not every applicant was considered suitable.  Was it because they weren't sincere enough?  Too frivolous?

That contrasts with the present day when it seems not that hard to find a doctor who will prescribe hormone blockers to adolescents.

Hormone blockers are supposed to be temporary and have no lasting effects, hence why the doctors will prescribe it.  Just like they prescribe anti-depressant and recommend the patient to undergo therapy/counseling.  With the blockers it theoritically gives time to the teen to explore his/her feelings with a psy.

I do wonder whether this misconception is key to why so many people are aghast at hormone blockers?
They seem so very common sense to me when you've got a trans kid- put off making the decision until they're old enough to do so.

This beautiful story seems to confirm you can go back and forth and your body will take it:

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/apr/20/the-dad-who-gave-birth-pregnant-trans-freddy-mcconnell

McConnell, 32, started taking testosterone at 25 and had "top surgery" to remove breast tissue a year later. He considered a hysterectomy, but never went through with it – partly because he had not ruled out the possibility of having children. In the film, we see how discombobulated McConnell becomes when he stops taking testosterone as he tries to conceive, using a sperm donor, and his body, in effect, goes into reverse. He starts having periods again ("I don't like the idea that I've got tampons in my bag," he winces); his facial hair gets wispier, his hips broaden, his tummy softens and he starts to speak less from his chest and more from his throat. "Every time I think about it, I think, 'What the fuck am I doing?'" he says. At one point, a tearful McConnell sobs into the camera in the middle of the night: "I feel like a fucking alien.

[ulmont]

This beautiful story seems to confirm you can go back and forth and your body will take it:

That's not really true.  Many of the physical changes from male levels of testosterone are permanent (vocal cords and enlargement of the clitoris being the initial two I'm thinking about) and surgery can only do so much to reverse them.  Similarly re: the female hormonal suite and breasts.

[crazy canuck]

Yes, I do think identifying as a gender other than your own is a choice.

What kind of discussion were you expecting when you started this thread with that line?

[Barrister]

That leaves the possibility of a pyschological imperative, which is perhaps where the real debate lies.  In the olden days (i.e. when Silence of the Lambs was written) sex change clinics would screen applicants for suitability, which of course means not every applicant was considered suitable.  Was it because they weren't sincere enough?  Too frivolous?

That contrasts with the present day when it seems not that hard to find a doctor who will prescribe hormone blockers to adolescents.

Hormone blockers are supposed to be temporary and have no lasting effects, hence why the doctors will prescribe it.  Just like they prescribe anti-depressant and recommend the patient to undergo therapy/counseling.  With the blockers it theoritically gives time to the teen to explore his/her feelings with a psy.

I do wonder whether this misconception is key to why so many people are aghast at hormone blockers?
They seem so very common sense to me when you've got a trans kid- put off making the decision until they're old enough to do so.

The argument against putting potentially trans kids on hormone blockers goes something like this:

We have very little peer reviewed scientific evidence on the long-term safety of hormone blockers.  These drugs were designed to delay puberty in children who have early, or precocious, puberty, and weren't studied to give to adolescents in the normal age range for puberty.

The second argument goes something like this: in most gender clinics the overwhelming majority of kids who go on puberty blockers wind up going on to take cross-sex hormones, so the notion that you're just "buying time" is a fiction.  Finally we don't have good evidence about how many youths with adolescent gender identity disorder will naturally desist over time as they grow older and come to accept their natal sex.