Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

[Josquius]

Ah yes. That fascist classic of "I'm not right or left. I'm a common sense centrist".

Big fingers crossed he does well enough that neither him nor le pen can get through and there's an actual democratic second round.

[Sheilbh]

Ah yes. That fascist classic of "I'm not right or left. I'm a common sense centrist".

Also a play on Macron's "neither right nor left" which was itself, perhaps inadvertently an echo, of the understanding of the Vichy regime and its collaborators.

I don't think it's a right or left thing but a populist and a technocratic thing: the old parties have failed, normal politics has failed.

Big fingers crossed he does well enough that neither him nor le pen can get through and there's an actual democratic second round.

Not sure I totally agree with the thing of if it ends up with results I don't like then it's not really democratic, while things I like are democratic

Sadly there is no hope for the left. From the polls I've seen the left is on a solid 25% and would glide into the second round but there's about seven candidates so they won't. Hopefully the more mainstream right will unify - I think their best hope is probably Bertrand but I'm not sure.

[Josquius]

Macron at least had a point in claiming the centre though IMO. That is about where liberals float.

It's not democratic when the choice is absolutely awful nonsense or shit. A huge number of people who voted macron last time had little love for him but knew they had to avoid a fascist.
The system is undemocratic to begin with. But it would be far improved with a real second round that gives a choice between 2 politicians who are remotely tolerable.

[Duque de Bragança]

Ah yes. That fascist classic of "I'm not right or left. I'm a common sense centrist".

Big fingers crossed he does well enough that neither him nor le pen can get through and there's an actual democratic second round.

I guess Macron is a fascist according to you because he used that line as well. 
Mind you, Le Pen père used it previously.

PS: Sheilbh said it but Tyr still does not get the reference

[Duque de Bragança]

Ah yes. That fascist classic of "I'm not right or left. I'm a common sense centrist".

Also a play on Macron's "neither right nor left" which was itself, perhaps inadvertently an echo, of the understanding of the Vichy regime and its collaborators.

I don't think it's a right or left thing but a populist and a technocratic thing: the old parties have failed, normal politics has failed.

Big fingers crossed he does well enough that neither him nor le pen can get through and there's an actual democratic second round.

Not sure I totally agree with the thing of if it ends up with results I don't like then it's not really democratic, while things I like are democratic

Sadly there is no hope for the left. From the polls I've seen the left is on a solid 25% and would glide into the second round but there's about seven candidates so they won't. Hopefully the more mainstream right will unify - I think their best hope is probably Bertrand but I'm not sure.

Situation should be clearer next week when the LR congress elects their candidate. Bertrand is still favourite and clashed recently with Jupin, which should be good for him.

Nobody noticed Zemmour played a mix of De Gaulle (18th June Call in London) to announce he would be candidate?

I loved Beethoven's 7th Symphony theme he used, reminded me of Zardoz. 
Not to mention the very presidential library behind him. It made me think of Mitterrand's official photo as president, probably not he what intended. 
Library of Pompidou or de Gaulle more likely.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah he isn't subtle with his references especially de Gaulle's call.

[Duque de Bragança]

Arguably, well chosen timing, since it was the day of the last LR candidate debate.

[Duque de Bragança]

Some slight improvement coming from Jupin's rump party. Rather than going for ignorant leftist tropes such as fascist, Bonnel described Zemmour's announcement as [General] Boulanger-style (at best).
Even L'Immonde mentioned it.

Nice.

[Sheilbh]

I mean Boulanger and his movement are commonly interpreted as proto-fascist, no?

So I'm not sure it's that great if you really have an issue with Zemmour being called a fascist - although I'm not sure that's how I'd describe him. Far-right for sure but not, I think, particularly fascist.

[Duque de Bragança]

I mean Boulanger and his movement are commonly interpreted as proto-fascist, no?

So I'm not sure it's that great if you really have an issue with Zemmour being called a fascist - although I'm not sure that's how I'd describe him. Far-right for sure but not, I think, particularly fascist.

Not commonly interpreted, just by Zeev Sternhell, a potent voice, but hardly gospel.
Not to mention most types of Jupin's rump party have hardly any French historical culture so Boulanger is terra incognita for them. Not studied in marketing classes, remember. 

Zemmour is a gaullo-bonapartist.
De Gaulle was called a fascist in his day by dumb leftists, was not too fond of Islam, cf. Colombey les-Deux-Églises vs Colombey-les-Deux-Mosquées, and justified decolonisation through it. He was a maurrassien in his youth as well.

Far-right is dog whistle politics for fascist these days. I suppose saying Zemmour is to the right of the right would do the job but I triggered somebody once by saying it, not even about Zemmour, so careful.

[Sheilbh]

Not just him by any stretch.

I think anyone influenced by Marxist interpretation of fascism would probably identify Boulanger as proto-fascist especially around whaat the right reponse should be. That interpretation dates back to at least Trotsky if not before.

[Duque de Bragança]

Problem is Sternhell has a very loose interpretation of fascism, as marxists.

He has been criticised a lot for his vision of French fascism, by the likes of Raymond Aron or scholars.

[viper37]

So Zemmour launches his explicitly "great replacement" theory candidacy (e.g. in his speech launching his campaign "both right and left have lied to you [...] they have hidden the reality of our replacement" and wanting to hand on "our"civilisation as it was passed on by "our" ancestors).

was he referring to the Celts, the Romans, the Huns, the Franks, the Alemanis, the Goths or the Vikings?  It gets a bit confusing who's who in Europe, sometimes... 
I am, however, very glad that France has found its saviour.  I had not realized France needed saving, though, but I don't follow their politics as close as I used to.  The things you miss when you sneeze...

[Sheilbh]

Problem is Sternhell has a very loose interpretation of fascism, as marxists.

Marxists don't have a loose interpretation of fascism - mainly because their take on fascism tends to be very linked to what are the circumstance in which fascism happens rather than what are its features as a political thought. Probably not least because Marxists don't really take fascism seriously as a philosophy (and they shouldn't because it isn't).

He has been criticised a lot for his vision of French fascism, by the likes of Raymond Aron or scholars.

That's the nature of being a historian or an academic surely. You have a theory and it's criticised by others.

[Zoupa]

But that just increases my biggest worry/initial concern that he won't get to the second round, Le Pen will, but his presence in the campaign will make Le Pen look like a more moderate/mainstream.

You're reading this the wrong way. Zemmour will get votes Le Pen never could. He's seen as more moderate than Le Pen.