Refractory Gauls, or the French politics thread

Started by Duque de Bragança, June 26, 2021, 11:58:33 AM

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Duque de Bragança

Xavier Bertrand is threatened by internecine quarrels in his party, a specialty of the French right, once described as "la droite la plus bête du monde" (silliest right in the world).
Ambitions, egos etc.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 01, 2021, 04:23:07 PM
Do you really think for Jordan Barella, young RN IdF candidate or Marine Le Pen, the royalist Action Française matters that much nowadays?

I think Marine's move to a big tent of the right is genuine, but the fascists have always been skulking around in that tent and still are.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on July 01, 2021, 05:59:14 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on July 01, 2021, 04:23:07 PM
Do you really think for Jordan Barella, young RN IdF candidate or Marine Le Pen, the royalist Action Française matters that much nowadays?

I think Marine's move to a big tent of the right is genuine, but the fascists have always been skulking around in that tent and still are.

Big tent of the right yes but including some old-guard left-wing sovereignists. Some chevènementistes for the ones interested in French politics of some time ago.

I would say following the (former chevènementiste) Phillipot's departure to create a new party, and his subsequent failure, anti-EU sovereignism has actually decreased, leaving Frexit and quitting the Euro for fringe formations.

For the Action française, RN is republican anyways. so that's a no.

The one possible convergence between RN and both the old (French extreme-right)and new anti-semitism (banlieue islamists) has been severed with the end of the direct Soral/Dieudonné influence in the party.

Le Pen father is godfather of one the daughters of Dieudonné, this is no coincidence.

Sheilbh

Being noted over here that Michel Barnier's (doomed) run for President as candidate of the centre-right is striking quite a lot of Brexity notes :lol:

In particular he's made proposals about free movement that are roughly the same as David Cameron's aims in the renegotiation. Now he's also said France must reclaim its "legal sovereignty" from decisions of the CJEU and ECHR. He also proposes a referendum on all non-EU immigration in September (he has previously called for a "pause" to all non-EU immigration).

The legal sovereignty point is something that should worry the EU because it is fighting that battle around supremacy on several fronts, with different member states. It's being challenged by at least Germany, Poland and France right now (it's striking the different issues causing problems: Germany - common debt/ECB; Poland - rule of law issues; France - bulk interception/mass surveillance/national security). I think the Economist column was right that Europe faces these twin moments which I think are both very important: on the one hand the long talked about "Hamiltonian" moment in the covid recovery fund (especially if similar process could be used for energy transition - and it should be); on the other a Calhounian moment, with a nullification crisis of who gets to decide the meaning and content of EU law.

I think I said at the time of German ruling - I think it was wrong and beyond their powers as a court within the EU. But we sort of tolerate little bits of over-reach from the German Constitutional Court (which it does a lot in the realm of EU law - as I say the UK v German interpretation of the supremacy of EU law as explained to me in law school are very different) because they are good judges and we trust that court. It applies a lot less when it's a packed constitutional court in Poland but it has the same formal position and rights (I'd proabbly argue the same for most couts, like the French, ruling on national security because they tend to defer to the execuitve on those issues). And if you're not convinced that all the judges across all member states will behave with similar probity and principle as the German Constitutional Court, then it's really important to make the formal rules strict and apply even there.
Let's bomb Russia!

Duque de Bragança

First time I hear about a run by Michel Barnier.  :lol:

Seems souverainist, but nothing Zemmour or even Marine would disagree with, unlike Zupiter.

Sheilbh

He has no chance, bless.

And given the polling it feels like it'd be crazy for the centre right to go for anyone but Bertrand. At least at this stage.
Let's bomb Russia!

Josquius

Ah yes. Assuming the far right are acting in good faith with their demands. Always a critical error.
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Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Tyr on September 09, 2021, 11:11:55 AM
Ah yes. Assuming the far right are acting in good faith with their demands. Always a critical error.

Makes Macron a member of the far-right I guess.  :D

Valmy

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 11:58:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 09, 2021, 11:11:55 AM
Ah yes. Assuming the far right are acting in good faith with their demands. Always a critical error.

Makes Macron a member of the far-right I guess.  :D

Politicians are different :P otherwise every party would be far-right.

I think Tyr is talking about the actual members.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2021, 01:03:11 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 11:58:42 AM
Quote from: Tyr on September 09, 2021, 11:11:55 AM
Ah yes. Assuming the far right are acting in good faith with their demands. Always a critical error.

Makes Macron a member of the far-right I guess.  :D

Politicians are different :P otherwise every party would be far-right.

I think Tyr is talking about the actual members.

Still not just actual members of the far-right.

Valmy

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 01:11:56 PM
Still not just actual members of the far-right.

True but you are putting in commentary that is not there. Tyr is not saying ONLY the Far-Right doesn't act in good faith, just that they are notorious for it.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2021, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 01:11:56 PM
Still not just actual members of the far-right.

True but you are putting in commentary that is not there. Tyr is not saying ONLY the Far-Right doesn't act in good faith, just that they are notorious for it.

Given Tyr's well known bias, that does not seem a stretch.  :P

Sheilbh

Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2021, 01:03:11 PM
Politicians are different :P otherwise every party would be far-right.
I'd carve out the US because reasons, but I think most politicians most of the time are acting in good faith, but to govern is to choose.
Let's bomb Russia!

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Sheilbh on September 09, 2021, 01:33:38 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2021, 01:03:11 PM
Politicians are different :P otherwise every party would be far-right.
I'd carve out the US because reasons, but I think most politicians most of the time are acting in good faith, but to govern is to choose.

This is French politics remember:

Gouverner c'est prévoir. :P

Valmy

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 01:16:04 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 09, 2021, 01:14:27 PM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on September 09, 2021, 01:11:56 PM
Still not just actual members of the far-right.

True but you are putting in commentary that is not there. Tyr is not saying ONLY the Far-Right doesn't act in good faith, just that they are notorious for it.

Given Tyr's well known bias, that does not seem a stretch.  :P

Well that's true :P
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."