What did a GWB Presidency look like?

[crazy canuck]

Okay, time to shut down Languish.

We've finally circled back to arguing about the start of the Iraq War.

We've finally run out of topics and are repeating ourselves.

[crazy canuck]

I think the origin of Trumpism lies in the climate change debate.  The first time Republicans adopted alternate facts.

I think the first foray into alternative facts is telling everyone that decreasing taxes would increase revenue, that dates back to the 80s.

[Berkut]

Trump's rise stems from the Tea Party rise in the early Obama years and the GOP's fatal decision to ride the tail of that tiger.

Indeed.

[Berkut]

I think in regards to the Iraq war, close on we look at history as the actions of people pushing things. IE, we went to war with Iraq because Bush lied!

As you get a longer view, history tends to look at underlying factors, with the players (often) being seen as more the people shaping specifics rather then driving the broad strokes. I think the Arab Spring and other things have made people less interested in casting Iraq War 2.0 as some kind of evil plot by the NeoCons and more recognition that it was the outcome of larger forces at play. This was something that I said even at the time - Iraq was never "stable". It was a powder keg whose lid was held tightly down by a brutally authoritarian dictator. It was no more stable than Yugoslavia was under Tito, probably a lot less so in fact. Saddams antics that led to the second war was part of his need to keep the lid on that powder keg.

I suspect in the long run, nobody will look at the the second round of the Iraq war as something driven by some personalities anymore than people look at WW1 and say that it was started because the Kaiser did this or didn't do that. Even Saddam was playing to forces beyond his own control.

And yeah....Trump has certainly made everyone look one hell of a lot better. And the Shrubbery's second term was a lot better than his first (once he ejected the Anti-Christ from his cabinet).

Is the argument that the US would get militarily involved in Iraq anyway after a "natural" fall of the Saddam regime?

No, the argument is that the fall of the Saddam regime would see a war in Iraq whether the US instigated that fall or not.


I think absent the internal issues with Iraq, the Shrubbery does not start a war.


I think absent the Shrubbery, the internal issue in Iraq result in a war when Saddam is gone anyway.


The key, as I was pointing out, was not the Shrubbery, but broader issues. As is (almost) always the case in these things.

[Berkut]

I think the origin of Trumpism lies in the climate change debate.  The first time Republicans adopted alternate facts.

...and that can be traced back to the religious rights insistence (and the GOPs taking on as a political issue in order to secure them) that creationism is a viable "alternate" fact.

[PDH]

But what does this have to do with the Confederates winning the Battle of Gettysburg?

[crazy canuck]

But what does this have to do with the Confederates winning the Battle of Gettysburg?

Well done

[Admiral Yi]

...and that can be traced back to the religious rights insistence (and the GOPs taking on as a political issue in order to secure them) that creationism is a viable "alternate" fact.

I considered that but ruled it out.  Creationism is a case of choosing an alternate theory.  Climate change is the first time IMO when Republicans said to themselves liberals believe X so Y must be true.

[crazy canuck]

...and that can be traced back to the religious rights insistence (and the GOPs taking on as a political issue in order to secure them) that creationism is a viable "alternate" fact.

I considered that but ruled it out.  Creationism is a case of choosing an alternate theory.  Climate change is the first time IMO when Republicans said to themselves liberals believe X so Y must be true.

More alternative facts.

Creationism is not a theory, it is a religious belief founded on nothing but faith.

[PDH]

The roots of Trumpism go back to the Southern Strategy and the renewed support of racism to further the agenda.

[Razgovory]

There is no single point where you can say "here began Trumpism".  There are multiple threads going way back.  For instance one major thread goes to the Nixon administration where they popularized the idea that it's the media is biased against Republicans and that's why it looks like the US isn't making any headway in Vietnam.  CBS is distorting the truth by not showing you the peaceful areas of Vietnam.

[crazy canuck]

There is no single point where you can say "here began Trumpism".  There are multiple threads going way back.  For instance one major thread goes to the Nixon administration where they popularized the idea that it's the media is biased against Republicans and that's why it looks like the US isn't making any headway in Vietnam.  CBS is distorting the truth by not showing you the peaceful areas of Vietnam.

I had not thought of it that way, you make a very good point.

[Jacob]

Okay, time to shut down Languish.

We've finally circled back to arguing about the start of the Iraq War.

We've finally run out of topics and are repeating ourselves.

Oh I see how it is. As soon as I come back you want to shut the place down!

[grumbler]

My theory is that the Trump Presidency came about because the Bush Presidency convinced the Republican establishment that they should shift from opposing the Imperial Presidency to embracing it, because they could get so much shit done.  The Bush Presidency was the first to postulate that the president had broad inherent powers not granted by the Constitution, and that it was the solemn duty of the President to resist all attempts by other branches of government to exert checks and balances.

The most telling feature of Trumpism, IMO, is that, in Trump, the Republican establishment had a president who wasn't as squeamish about blatantly violating the Constitution.  It didn't have to be Trump, of course, but that's the way it played out.

Other elements of Trumpism are certainly attributable to the Southern Strategy and other elements argued by others, but it is the assault on all Constitutional norms that strike me as the core damage done.

[Berkut]

There is no single point where you can say "here began Trumpism".  There are multiple threads going way back.  For instance one major thread goes to the Nixon administration where they popularized the idea that it's the media is biased against Republicans and that's why it looks like the US isn't making any headway in Vietnam.  CBS is distorting the truth by not showing you the peaceful areas of Vietnam.

Indeed.

I don't even think of this in terms of "what led to Trump". Trump is not the end state, or some kind of singular result, like a war or something.

Trump is one of many fruits that have come to ripen on the tree of hatred, bigotry, intolerance, rejection of democracy, and rejection of truth that has come to define modern "conservatism".