Quo Vadis GOP?

[Valmy]

At it's most agreeable, being "woke" means being made aware of the persistent inequality and systemic discrimination against minority groups across western society.

Yeah that was the original meaning...I think. It only seem to have been used on the left as a positive thing in 2017. But even that is a little fuzzy. It seemed like it was used by leftists for about 10 minutes before being picked up by the right.

But I don't think you can deny that what I'll call "disagreeable wokeism" isn't a real thing, and that it is, well, disagreeable.

Oh it is and I have spoken against it forever, long before the term "woke" became a thing in popular discourse. And I have already done all that I can think can be done about it. I left the platform that does most of this, twitter, and have said it is bad. I am not sure what else I can do. It is hard to stop a small geographically spread out group of people from doing bad things on the internet.

Of course I think hypocritically the right speaks out against it while doing the same damn shit itself.  And it is not the disagreeable parts that they are going after. They are going after all left wing social values, it doesn't matter whether the people who hold those values are into cancel culture or how reasonable or whatever. All trans people are guilty and must be stopped just because they exist. That is the bigger problem.

If people want to make laws against cancel culture and to protect free speech that is one thing, but in actuality the laws being passed seem to make cancel culture more powerful. Politicians could MORE easily fire people for having the wrong opinions with this Florida bill. Making it easier to fire people for saying the wrong thing seems an odd response if "wokism" refers to persecuting people for having "wrong think" opinions. One would think the response would be to make it harder.

[The Larch]

Why the hell are we discussing whatever nebulous strawman is this "disagreeable wokeism" that we can't even agree to describe and not the fascistic drift of the GOP?

[Jacob]

Why the hell are we discussing whatever nebulous strawman is this "disagreeable wokeism" that we can't even agree to describe and not the fascistic drift of the GOP?

Because there is no excess of the reactionary right that cannot immediately be blamed on "wokeism" and indicate "that wokeism is the REAL threat."

[Sheilbh]

Why the hell are we discussing whatever nebulous strawman is this "disagreeable wokeism" that we can't even agree to describe and not the fascistic drift of the GOP?

Yeah I don't get the connection from "wokism" and "cancel culture" to "don't say gay" laws, or laws banning drag performances, or the teaching of theories in school.

I also think the nebulousness of wokeness is precisely because it's become primarily a useful tool/definition for the right. It's the old Orwell line on fascism: "the word fascism has now no meaning except in so far as it signifies 'something not desirable'". "Woke"/"wokism" is similarly empty of content.

Having said that if the left is fighting the culture war - and I'd hope it is given all of that - I think there probably should be some thought into what they're trying to achieve and if their tactics are delivering.

[The Minsky Moment]

Why the hell are we discussing whatever nebulous strawman is this "disagreeable wokeism" that we can't even agree to describe and not the fascistic drift of the GOP?

Because the awesome power and might of Whataboutism cannot be resisted.

[The Brain]

FWIW my impression is that the GOP is about conservative/reactionary authoritarianism and not Fascism.

[The Larch]

FWIW my impression is that the GOP is about conservative/reactionary authoritarianism and not Fascism.

Potato potahto.

Take Eco's checklist and a fair bunch of them get checked for the Trumpian GOP.

[The Brain]

FWIW my impression is that the GOP is about conservative/reactionary authoritarianism and not Fascism.

Potato potahto.

Take Eco's checklist and a fair bunch of them get checked for the Trumpian GOP.

Had to google it, but if this quote is correct then they are a very weak indicator according to Eco himself.

"These features," writes the novelist and semiotician, "cannot be organized into a system; many of them contradict each other, and are also typical of other kinds of despotism or fanaticism. But it is enough that one of them be present to allow fascism to coagulate around it."

https://www.openculture.com/2016/11/umberto-eco-makes-a-list-of-the-14-common-features-of-fascism.html

[The Larch]

It's not meant to be a scientific test. The thing is that you don't need people to start goosestepping before you can put the right labels on them.

[The Brain]

It's not meant to be a scientific test. The thing is that you don't need people to start goosestepping before you can put the right labels on them.

Er... OK. *backs away slowly*

[The Larch]

I don't bite..   

[The Brain]

I don't bite..   

Well I do. Into a nice juicy carrot since I'm still hungry after dinner.

[Sheilbh]

FWIW my impression is that the GOP is about conservative/reactionary authoritarianism and not Fascism.

I agree. I think we need more words to describe right wing authoritarianism.

There are clearly trends globally: managed democracy, crony capitalism, controlled/stage managed opposition, cultural/national chauvinism. I think there are common features in lots of these regimes or movements in many different countries (all within states that have democratic institutions), but I think there are really big differences with fascism.

[frunk]

It's not meant to be a scientific test. The thing is that you don't need people to start goosestepping before you can put the right labels on them.

Even more important than the label is the measure of risk associated with their behavior.  If they are using the fascist playbook it means they are a danger to your society.  Quibbling about if it's officially "fascist" yet misses the point.

[Jacob]

Even more important than the label is the measure of risk associated with their behavior.  If they are using the fascist playbook it means they are a danger to your society.  Quibbling about if it's officially "fascist" yet misses the point.

Exactly.