JK Rowling reveals she is survivor of domestic abuse and sexual assault

[Valmy]

Well we have kept sports segregated by sex because it would not be fair to put women up against men because they would have a disadvantage that would be difficult to overcome, all things being equal. If we make it about gender, as it seems to be now, then suddenly that segregation make a lot less sense and becomes a lot more difficult to manage the fairness issue.

But how big of an issue this is, in practice, I am unclear on. I do know that many athletes are insanely competitive and, particularly in something like the Olympics. They might do anything to get an advantage. I wouldn't be suprised to see this issue leveraged for rampant cheating at some point if not done correctly. But I could be wrong. But hey it is not like there is not already rampant cheating at many of these high end sports.

[The Brain]

I don't fully understand how having concerns about safety/security means that a person is transphobic, while having concerns about something as unimportant as the egos of high end athletes does not. Why not simply accept transwomen as women?

[Sheilbh]

Well we have kept sports segregated by sex because it would not be fair to put women up against men because they would have a disadvantage that would be difficult to overcome, all things being equal. If we make it about gender, as it seems to be now, then suddenly that segregation make a lot less sense and becomes a lot more difficult to manage the fairness issue.

Obviously it depends on which sport but my understanding from the Semenya case is the IAAF moved to gender with sex verification if there are doubts in the 90s (there is also a racial element to this as the women who have had to undergo sex verification since those rules were introduced are basically all non-white - so query if the standard is about how they look not how they're performing). Edit: They then changed position after Semenya's success and allegations in 2008 and 2012 (because, based on their sex verification she was female - so they changed their definition of sex). As I say the whole thing leaves me really uncomfotable because it feels like this entire debate pivoted around one athlete who did nothing wrong and I just think it's incredibly sad.

And it is worth saying all the stuff we're talking about is separate from the transgender debate about sports - this is all about largely intersex or people with genetic conditions.

The other reason I think it needs more careful handling than I think sport governing bodies have given it is countries will work to the test, if you know what I mean. So if we say the key trigger is x then countries will "help" their athletes get on the right side of that and we need to be mindful that there are human beings at the end of this - even if they are super-freaks like elite athletes. So there's been an example of a number of women competing who had forced gonadectomies and have their genitals mutilated to compete and get on the "right" side of the line.

[Tamas]

Intersex and transgender people in sport is a valid and complex topic of discussion with no easier answers.
Alas all too often it's just used as a crowbar by those opposed to transgender rights in general to try and push their agenda which goes way beyond what level of sport a transexual person should be able to compete in and under what criteria.

I don't think separate male and female sporting events can survive the removal of differentiation between male and female, how could they? We should just have sporting events period, everyone will reach as high a level as they are capable physically, and then it won't matter who identifies as what.

[Eddie Teach]

Except there are women who would like to compete with each other, and a market willing to pay to see those contests. It's like weight classes, 100 pound dudes can call themselves world champion boxers.

[Josquius]

Intersex and transgender people in sport is a valid and complex topic of discussion with no easier answers.
Alas all too often it's just used as a crowbar by those opposed to transgender rights in general to try and push their agenda which goes way beyond what level of sport a transexual person should be able to compete in and under what criteria.

I don't think separate male and female sporting events can survive the removal of differentiation between male and female, how could they? We should just have sporting events period, everyone will reach as high a level as they are capable physically, and then it won't matter who identifies as what.

Possible. Though I doubt that will be popular with female athletes.
Even if women's sport becomes devalued as one united game takes over (dominated by men) I can't see women's sport going away completely. It'll still exist even at some low amateur level. Just look at all the variations that exist today for people of certain ages, with disabilities, being from the same minority group, etc...
At which the debate will remain over who can take part.

[Tamas]

Ok but then it is an entirely artificial debate then. The weight classes are a good example. Nobody is trying to get offended for being left out of the lighter classes on account of labelled to big/fat, so there's no reason to get offended for being left out of a competition due to your chromosomes.

And for the 1 in 6 billion cases like that South African person, good for them, they get to have a male physique with a female's biology, they'll dominate the sport then retire and things go back to normal.

[Josquius]

Theres quite a big difference between telling someone "you're 5kg too big for middle weight. You have to compete in heavy weight" and "you're not a woman. You have to start all over again and compete as a man".

Remember it's not just competing in top level sport with big money on the line we are talking about here. It goes right down to dinky little local amateur level.

To me it seems a no brainer that merely identifying as a woman should exclude you from the highest level of women's sport but a little local football league where none of the teams even bother training and just play for fun? Seems equally daft to exclude a trans person there. The difficult question then becomes where is the line and how is it defined.

[Eddie Teach]

Shouldn't that be up to the organization running the games?

[Josquius]

Shouldn't that be up to the organization running the games?

I don't get your point

[Eddie Teach]

It would be up to the participants what type of league they joined.

[Josquius]

It would be up to the participants what type of league they joined.

Yes?
That's what we are discussing here. It's not something any of us would ever get to make a decision on but someone has to and its not an easy one to make.

[Eddie Teach]

So why are you deciding for them that not wanting to compete with trans-women is daft?

[Josquius]

So why are you deciding for them that not wanting to compete with trans-women is daft?

Why do we discuss anything? E.g. Its down to the US government to decide on American policy. Doesnt mean we can't dream and discuss what we reckon they should be doing.

[Eddie Teach]

Ok. I think practical considerations are likely to trump ideological ones for actual participants.