UK extends visa rights to 3 million Hong Kongers

[Monoriu]

Classic problem of induction.

If that's the problem, then what is the solution? 

Declare a category error and run like Hell.

I have answered this question a thousand times already.  There are no jobs in Canada, so the answer is still no 

When your ancestors fled to Hong Kong did they have jobs waiting for them?

Of course not.  But my father's family was fleeing from the Japanese operation Ichi-go.  I expect no such operation in the near future 

I am fine.  I really don't see the need to flee.  I obey the law, don't riot, don't protest, don't vote, etc.  Some people will leave, sure, and they have their own reasons.  Some of them may not be related to politics.  It is well-known that we have some of the most expensive real estate in the world.  So far the people who leave are in the small minority. 

[Razgovory]

Being apolitical did not protect hundreds of thousands from the camps in Xinjiang.  I have a feeling that there are plenty of civil servants who aren't "apolitical" on the mainland.  Civil servants who are instead quite politically reliable.  Rewarding supporters (or family members) with civil service jobs has a long history in the US.  Does China have a similar concept?

[Monoriu]

Being apolitical did not protect hundreds of thousands from the camps in Xinjiang.  I have a feeling that there are plenty of civil servants who aren't "apolitical" on the mainland.  Civil servants who are instead quite politically reliable.  Rewarding supporters (or family members) with civil service jobs has a long history in the US.  Does China have a similar concept?

Hong Kong and Xinjiang are not really comparable. 

I don't really know the Mainland system, but I would imagine the answer to be yes.  Having said that the Mainland is quite meritocratic when it comes to the civil service.  There are exceptions, but my experience is that their officials are competent, especially on the national level. 

I would imagine that being politically reliable is crucial to all civil service around the world.  We call that political neutrality in Hong Kong.  All civil servants must be completely loyal to the Chief Executive in office.

I think Beijing will be very happy if all HKers are apolitical.  Beijing is happy with the status quo.  It is the HKers who want change and are thus not apolitical enough. 

[Razgovory]

Why is Xinjiang not comparable?

[Sheilbh]

Interesting Gideon Rachman piece on Hong Kong v Singapore, which I think is basically true:
https://www.ft.com/content/0eb401dc-19ff-4cea-b353-67c0995f8903

Mono - what's the stuff in the national security law about "state secrets"? Just because from having some exposure to China's data sovereignty laws, they define "state secrets" incredibly broadly.

[Monoriu]

Why is Xinjiang not comparable?

Xinjiang's problem is ethnic and religious.  Uighurs are not Han Chinese, and they are Muslims.  Xinjiang is a huge province, with low population density.  The world basically doesn't want to care about it, until confronted with strong evidence.  Xinjiang is easily one of the poorest provinces in China.

Hong Kong's population is almost entirely Han Chinese, and there are no religious issues.  It is a tiny place with one of the highest population densities in the world.  It is highly internationalised, with lots of expats and foreign media.  If somebody tosses a petrol bomb, the world will know about it.  Hong Kong is still, on a per capita basis, the richest place in China and one of the richest in the world. 

[Josquius]

Its one of the most remarkable achievements of China that they have convinced foreigners who look different and speak a different language that they are the same people.
I have often wondered how different things might have been if China had developed and alphabet and Rome/Greece a syllabry.

[Monoriu]

Interesting Gideon Rachman piece on Hong Kong v Singapore, which I think is basically true:
https://www.ft.com/content/0eb401dc-19ff-4cea-b353-67c0995f8903

Mono - what's the stuff in the national security law about "state secrets"? Just because from having some exposure to China's data sovereignty laws, they define "state secrets" incredibly broadly.

There is a paywall, so I can't read your article.

State Secrets.  Beijing's narrative is that Trump and the CIA are behind the riots.  Now, it is true that many Hong Kong riot leaders have spoken in the US Congress and other places to ask the US to sanction China/Hong Kong.  The pre-National Security Laws of Hong Kong did not criminalise that.  So the chief aim is to put those leaders in jail if they continue to ask for sanctions, and to expose the CIA people.  Of all the crimes in the National Security Law, this is probably the least understood area because there are no cases.  There are plenty of cases of people trying to disrupt the government, attacking the police, asking for foreign sanctions.  But so far I am not aware of any allegations of stealing state secrets. 

[Monoriu]

Its one of the most remarkable achievements of China that they have convinced foreigners who look different and speak a different language that they are the same people.
I have often wondered how different things might have been if China had developed and alphabet and Rome/Greece a syllabry.

The Chinese written language has been one of the pillars that holds China together.  Even today, the speaking language of many Chinese are different.  Cantonese, the language of Hong Kong, is not mutually intelligible with Mandarin.  The same goes for many other dialects. 

The written language however is the same throughout China.  The Chinese characters, unlike alphabets, are pretty much fixed.  It is very difficult to change them.  So they are the same throughout China over long periods of time.  The imperial examination system ensures that intellectuals will try to learn the same language and writing system, rather than trying to change it. 

[Tamas]

Interesting Gideon Rachman piece on Hong Kong v Singapore, which I think is basically true:
https://www.ft.com/content/0eb401dc-19ff-4cea-b353-67c0995f8903

Mono - what's the stuff in the national security law about "state secrets"? Just because from having some exposure to China's data sovereignty laws, they define "state secrets" incredibly broadly.

There is a paywall, so I can't read your article.

State Secrets.  Beijing's narrative is that Trump and the CIA are behind the riots.  Now, it is true that many Hong Kong riot leaders have spoken in the US Congress and other places to ask the US to sanction China/Hong Kong.  The pre-National Security Laws of Hong Kong did not criminalise that.  So the chief aim is to put those leaders in jail if they continue to ask for sanctions, and to expose the CIA people.  Of all the crimes in the National Security Law, this is probably the least understood area because there are no cases.  There are plenty of cases of people trying to disrupt the government, attacking the police, asking for foreign sanctions.  But so far I am not aware of any allegations of stealing state secrets.

Sounds like "state secret" is whatever a sufficiently highly placed official will decide to label something.

[Monoriu]

Sounds like "state secret" is whatever a sufficiently highly placed official will decide to label something.

Have a problem with that?  You may thank the pan-democrats and rioters for successfully applying for and getting the law from Beijing

[Sheilbh]

Sounds like "state secret" is whatever a sufficiently highly placed official will decide to label something.

Yeah. It's why I'm interested in what the actual crime is because under Chinese data sovereignty laws it's exceptionally broad. It's something along the lines of "things related to state security and national interests", but they don't have to be labelled "secret" to be a state secret - they include things about the economy, technology, development, science etc. It's notoriously difficult to work out what is and isn't a "state secret".

It'll be interesting to see if the Hong Kong courts refer to the Chinese approach on this given that it's a concept from mainland China, because if there are now criminal restrictions on sharing "state secrets" in Hong Kong then that is quite a significant change to the risk of operating there especially if you've got a data heavy business.

[grumbler]

Have a problem with that?  You may thank the pan-democrats and rioters for successfully applying for and getting the law from Beijing

You must be right, because no place without "pan-democrats and rioters" has laws anything like that.

To outsiders like me, it is obvious that Beijing was going to implement laws like this no matter what.  Emperor Xi does not share the global views of the old regime.  Hong Kong was allowing in too many foreign ideas even before there were demonstrations in favor of democracy.  All the demonstrations did was do away with the need of the ruling dynasty to pretend they were going to abide by their treaty obligations.  It's part and parcel with the new imperialism in the South China Sea.  China under the new regime has no need to do anything that the regime doesn't want to do.  It's Trumpism multiplied by 1.4 billion.

[Maladict]

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/jul/08/china-great-firewall-descends-hong-kong-internet-users

Bye Mono.

[Josquius]

Wow. Far quicker than expected. They're not going for a slow boil anymore but have decided to turn the heat up a few notches.