Covid-19 lockdown check-in

[Josquius]

Two of my cousins, late 30s/early 40s, just came out as anti vax

[Sheilbh]

Two of my cousins, late 30s/early 40s, just came out as anti vax

I've only had one distant connection. A friend was saying that she was chatting to a friend of hers who basically said "I'm not getting vacccinated, are you?" and my friend replied she'd already had two AZ doses. Then the other person - "I just don't want to talk about it!" despite bringing it up

I can only assume she's getting lots of push back/challenge from people and wants reassurance. She's late 20s/early 30s.

[Valmy]

I am just baffled by the recent success of the anti-vax propaganda. How can you convince people that something that has worked with almost miraculous results for hundreds of years doesn't work? With zero evidence besides the fact that, like virtually everything, some people might have allergic reactions to them?

Yet they are having tons of success convincing people. But why? Why do this? Don't we have more pressing things to spread lies and fear monger about?

[Barrister]

I've mentioned two.  My sister-in-law is "waiting" to get her vaccine shot.

Also the lawyer across the hall is "undecided".  He's Trump-adjacent (dude we live in Canada) so I'm pretty sure he gets it from social media.

[Valmy]

I've mentioned two.  My sister-in-law is "waiting" to get her vaccine shot.

Also the lawyer across the hall is "undecided".  He's Trump-adjacent (dude we live in Canada) so I'm pretty sure he gets it from social media.

I kind of feel bad for Trump. He wants to take all the credit for his project warp speed but his supporters are rapidly deciding that vaccines are evil.

I mean for no reason at all. That is what is so baffling. I guess it is possible to fear monger about anything.

[Eddie Teach]

I kind of feel bad for Trump.

       https://youtu.be/l60MnDJklnM 

[Grey Fox]

I don't know anyone personally but of conversation I've over heard :

1) It's fear of needles
2) mistrust of big pharma for years compounded with these vaccines not being properly tested
3) Would rather have treatment than a vaccine.
4) Listening to Didier Raoult (Don't google him, he's a french idiot)

[Sheilbh]

I am just baffled by the recent success of the anti-vax propaganda. How can you convince people that something that has worked with almost miraculous results for hundreds of years doesn't work? With zero evidence besides the fact that, like virtually everything, some people might have allergic reactions to them?

Yet they are having tons of success convincing people. But why? Why do this? Don't we have more pressing things to spread lies and fear monger about?

The wider social thing is mind-blowing from a UK perspective because Dr Andrew Wakefield and his MMR-autism link started here in the late 90s/early 2000s and it was a huge deal. It was published in the Lancet (the editor is still in place) who later withdrew it and apologised so it looked credible. But it was then promptly discredited in the medical press and the wider media and he was struck off by the General Medical Council. After that it kind of died a little bit.

It's incredible to see him since then basically take the same theory - and despite being discredited in the UK - being able to convince people to take it seriously again in France and the US. Then we get it again from a slightly more spurious "natural healing" and maybe there's something about autism from the US even though - to use the virus metaphor that's really just a new variant of Wakefield's original in many ways.

[Valmy]

I am just baffled by the recent success of the anti-vax propaganda. How can you convince people that something that has worked with almost miraculous results for hundreds of years doesn't work? With zero evidence besides the fact that, like virtually everything, some people might have allergic reactions to them?

Yet they are having tons of success convincing people. But why? Why do this? Don't we have more pressing things to spread lies and fear monger about?

The wider social thing is mind-blowing from a UK perspective because Dr Andrew Wakefield and his MMR-autism link started here in the late 90s/early 2000s and it was a huge deal. It was published in the Lancet (the editor is still in place) who later withdrew it and apologised so it looked credible. But it was then promptly discredited in the medical press and the wider media and he was struck off by the General Medical Council. After that it kind of died a little bit.

It's incredible to see him since then basically take the same theory - and despite being discredited in the UK - being able to convince people to take it seriously again in France and the US. Then we get it again from a slightly more spurious "natural healing" and maybe there's something about autism from the US even though - to use the virus metaphor that's really just a new variant of Wakefield's original in many ways.

It is not even about the autism thing anymore, that would only impact babies. If that has you deciding to delay your kids vaccinations until they are a few years old to avoid all the autism, then ok that is crazy but ok. I get it. Giving all those shots to babies might be scary.

But we now have full grown adults, who are never going to develop autism, being terrified of all kinds of spurious things. Vaccines will make you sterile. Vaccines will get other people sick via "vaccine shedding". I don't know. All kinds of weird unsubstantiated things.

Now maybe they want to just wait a bit to see if these new Covid vaccines are kosher. I guess I could get that. But instead it is almost a principled stand, to just not take them.

And of course now it is becoming a culture and identity issue. If you are a conservative you will refuse vaccines because the left wants to force them on everybody. So now it might not even be about being scared of medical issues, just general culture something something.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah I get the point on these vaccines being different but I think the growth in the US and France especially of anti-vaccine sentiment from the autism thing is sort of the seed bed for this. It prepares the ground for it - and I wonder if part of the reason the UK doesn't have this to the same extent is, while we've not met our MMR targets, the autism is discredited and people know it is discredited and the guy who was pushing has been struck off.

And I still think there's a really important distinction between vaccine hesitant and anti-vax. It is entirely legitimate to ask if these have been tested enough given the speed they were developed, or whether the tests were sufficiently diverse (or did they only include white people in which case we might not know about adverse effects for other ethnicities), or whether the manufacture of the vaccine is halal or if it presents moral issues for Catholics, or whether it's safe for me with pre-existing condition x to get the vaccine. All of those questions can and should be addressed by public health officials, by religious leaders etc - and they are absolutely fine worries for people to have.

But the actively anti-vax stuff I find baffling and in the UK it is the definition of a horseshoe issue where it is the far-right and left being nutters about this together.

I was in central London recently and without realising it anti-vaxxers had a big demonstration that day. I walked through an area they'd been marching and they'd just plastered it with absolutely crazy stickers about vaccines and lockdown and social control etc. It was slightly heartening when I spotted that there was a girl of about 14 walking by with her friends and she was picking the stickers off walls and some of her friends had marker pens to paint over them - I was really struck by it

[Valmy]

Oh I agree being hesitant or very cautious about vaccines, or certain vaccines, is understandable if not justified IMO. I certainly am not bothered by when you take your vaccines, or how much research and caution you feel the need to use. And for some people with allergies and conditions, they shouldn't take certain vaccines.

But that is not the problem I am seeing. I am seeing passionate and angry anti-vax people who work to convince everybody to stop taking them. Also the assertion of malicious intent to everybody who is not anti-vax, just like you said with those stickers.

[celedhring]

I've just had my first face-to-face work meeting scheduled for July 8th.

I'm actually looking forward to it, which highlights the fact that the lockdown has slowly devoured my sanity 

[Josquius]

Hbomberguy recently did a really hefty piece on anti-vaxers. It was interesting, some things I didn't know there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BIcAZxFfrc

TLDR: The anti-vax people are in it for the money. That dr preaching against MMR? He owned the patent for another measles vaccine.

[Syt]

Hbomberguy recently did a really hefty piece on anti-vaxers. It was interesting, some things I didn't know there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8BIcAZxFfrc

TLDR: The anti-vax people are in it for the money. That dr preaching against MMR? He owned the patent for another measles vaccine.

The part where the one guy was taking blood from the kids at the birthday party was a bit messed up.

[Duque de Bragança]

In France, anti-vaccine/"vaccine hesitancy", ©Sheilb, is far from being a right-wing nutter cultural war issue.

It's pretty common among Greens supporters and even their leadership e.g Michèle Rivasi, number 2 for the Greens in the last European elections, trying to organise a screening in the European Parliament of a Wakefield anti-vaccine propaganda movie.