Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[crazy canuck]

It is painfully clear how the US can get away with what they have done.  Their citizens have no clue.

[Berkut]

But the way of waging the war against the pandemic is radically different. To fight WW2, you ahve to get military equipment into contact with the Axis. The best way to do so in 1940/41/42/43 was probably to send the war materials to produce that equipment to the USSR, because shipping the completed arms is just not as efficient (although we did that as well of course, depending on the specific equipment).

I don't think that is the case here - the best way to fight the global pandemic for the US is to produce as much vaccine as possible, then ship that vaccine where it is needed. I don't see anyone arguing that India can use raw materials produced in the US better than the US can, just bitching that in fact the US produces raw materials in the US that the US is then consuming to produce more vaccine. That complaint makes no sense without actual data that shows that someone else could better use those raw materials - the article cited makes no such claim.

But Berkut - the problem is the US isn't doing that.  They aren't shipping vaccines anywhere.  The US is prohibiting the export of any vaccine manufactured in the US (well until you so recently agreed to "loan" nearly expired vaccine to Canada and Mexico that isn't even approved in the US).

But that is incorrect. The US has not prohibited the export of vaccine,

No, the US banned all export.  Except now for this very limited release of AZ to Canada and Mexico.

I am completely confident that once the fucking mess Trump left things in is cleaned up (which is happening amazingly quickly) the US will produce literally billions of doses of vaccine that will be used outside the US. Because you know, all Americans are assholes that cannot be trusted.

This is fucking hiliarious.

By that time, Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccines obtained by from its other allies. 

And things really are not so different under Biden, he is the one who restricted supplies for making vaccine after all.

Yeah, because Canada would definitely be producing their own vaccine if only the US would send them the supplies, right?

If Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccine produced elsewhere, outstanding! Then US vaccine can go to other countries that will need it. Why are you complaining about this?

What is your actual bitch here - is it that the US should be focused on getting Canada vaccinated with vaccine produced in the US with US materials BEFORE it gets its own citizens vaccinated?

[Barrister]

The shortage of raw materials, PER THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED, is NOT because the US is hoarding them, but simply because the world does not have the capacity to produce what is needed.

I don't have time to hunt down the link, but I have definitely red that vaccine production in India is being seriously hampered by lack of inputs from the US.  That is, they could be producing more but can't because of the US export controls.

[The Minsky Moment]

but at some point it just gets to be bad geopolitics.

Defending the interests of one's citizens includes considering the political effects of decisions outside the country and how it impacts national security. No debate on that.

[Berkut]

It is painfully clear how the US can get away with what they have done.  Their citizens have no clue.

And what is it that the US has done, exactly, that we are so clueless about?

We prioritized the US use of US produced raw materials to produce US produced vaccine to vaccinate American citizens, with the plan that once that is complete, we will then ship vaccine elsewhere.

Show me the part that is such a travesty. Still waiting for that. What should the US have done instead?

[Barrister]

Yeah, because Canada would definitely be producing their own vaccine if only the US would send them the supplies, right?

If Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccine produced elsewhere, outstanding! Then US vaccine can go to other countries that will need it. Why are you complaining about this?

What is your actual bitch here - is it that the US should be focused on getting Canada vaccinated with vaccine produced in the US with US materials BEFORE it gets its own citizens vaccinated?

Don't be silly.  Nobody would expect that.

But I would've hoped that the US would have co-ordinated it's vaccine production and distribution with its allies.  You know what, even if the US said "no exports until we vaccinate all Americans over 65" I'd be okay with that.  But the idea the rest of the world has to wait until every last low-risk US citizen is vaccinated is kind of galling.

[Berkut]

The shortage of raw materials, PER THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED, is NOT because the US is hoarding them, but simply because the world does not have the capacity to produce what is needed.

I don't have time to hunt down the link, but I have definitely red that vaccine production in India is being seriously hampered by lack of inputs from the US.  That is, they could be producing more but can't because of the US export controls.

Exactly. But if you read what I posted, the problem is not that the US has a bunch of inputs they are just sitting on, it is because the US production of vaccine has consumed all the US production of those inputs.

If we sent those raw materials to India, then you would replace "India cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw material shortages from the US" with "The US cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw materials shortages they sent from the US to India". And given the cost and inefficiency of sending things from the US to India, and the likely reality that Indian production is not as productive and efficient, the net effect is likely to be LESS total production of vaccine! How is that better?

As I said, and is consistently ignored, if there is an argument that in fact India could produce MORE vaccine than the US with those same raw materials, then that would be a good argument to be made. But it has not been made.

[Berkut]

Yeah, because Canada would definitely be producing their own vaccine if only the US would send them the supplies, right?

If Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccine produced elsewhere, outstanding! Then US vaccine can go to other countries that will need it. Why are you complaining about this?

What is your actual bitch here - is it that the US should be focused on getting Canada vaccinated with vaccine produced in the US with US materials BEFORE it gets its own citizens vaccinated?

Don't be silly.  Nobody would expect that.

But I would've hoped that the US would have co-ordinated it's vaccine production and distribution with its allies.  You know what, even if the US said "no exports until we vaccinate all Americans over 65" I'd be okay with that.  But the idea the rest of the world has to wait until every last low-risk US citizen is vaccinated is kind of galling.

That would be galling, but there is no evidence, other than CC's hysteria, that the US has said that is the case. The only thing that the US has said it is that it would prioritize US use of US resources and vaccine. The rest is your guys imagination.

I mean really, just read the fucking articles posted. There are only two of them, and they both DIRECTLY contradict the narrative you are getting enraged about!

[Barrister]

If we sent those raw materials to India, then you would replace "India cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw material shortages" with "The US cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw materials shortages". And given the cost and inefficiency of sending things from the US to India, and the likely reality that Indian production is not as productive and efficient, the net effect is likely to be LESS total production of vaccine! How is that better?

Because then those vaccines could go to the 7 billion people who don't live in the US.

[Berkut]

If we sent those raw materials to India, then you would replace "India cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw material shortages" with "The US cannot produce as much vaccine because of raw materials shortages". And given the cost and inefficiency of sending things from the US to India, and the likely reality that Indian production is not as productive and efficient, the net effect is likely to be LESS total production of vaccine! How is that better?

Because then those vaccines could go to the 7 billion people who don't live in the US.

This is back to now claiming that the US should hamper its own ability to produce vaccine with materials produced in the US in order to allow India to produce vaccine with materials produced in the US.

Read the article. The problem is a global shortage of supplies. This is a problem of allocation of resources.

If you are going to be honest, the only way to claim any kind of outrage is to show that India could better use those supplies than the US, so much so that it should override the utility of the US using them internally. No such argument has been made, and the article cited as evidence directly contradicts the claim that this is a problem created by the US.

[Barrister]

Yeah, because Canada would definitely be producing their own vaccine if only the US would send them the supplies, right?

If Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccine produced elsewhere, outstanding! Then US vaccine can go to other countries that will need it. Why are you complaining about this?

What is your actual bitch here - is it that the US should be focused on getting Canada vaccinated with vaccine produced in the US with US materials BEFORE it gets its own citizens vaccinated?

Don't be silly.  Nobody would expect that.

But I would've hoped that the US would have co-ordinated it's vaccine production and distribution with its allies.  You know what, even if the US said "no exports until we vaccinate all Americans over 65" I'd be okay with that.  But the idea the rest of the world has to wait until every last low-risk US citizen is vaccinated is kind of galling.

That would be galling, but there is no evidence, other than CC's hysteria, that the US has said that is the case. The only thing that the US has said it is that it would prioritize US use of US resources and vaccine. The rest is your guys imagination.

I mean really, just read the fucking articles posted. There are only two of them, and they both DIRECTLY contradict the narrative you are getting enraged about!

The global pandemic has been all over the world's media for the last year.  There are a lot more than 2 news article out there.

Are you denying that the US has banned the export of vaccines to date?  Here's a useful Twitter thread setting out what happened, comparing US/UK/EU strategies on vaccine procurement.

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1372897635577761803

But the short version - the US, first under a Trump Executive Order, then under Biden's use of the Defense Production Act - has banned the export of vaccines.

[Berkut]

But I would've hoped that the US would have co-ordinated it's vaccine production and distribution with its allies.

THIS I do agree with, but you know...Trump.

But he is gone, and the approach that the US is actually taking, right now, makes perfect fucking sense from any reasonable perspective.

The US is saying:

1. US produced supplies of raw materials needed for vaccine production will be prioritized to US manufacturers of vaccine. That makes perfect sense - of course we are going to use US produced raw materials for US production, it would be inefficient to do otherwise, and make no sense if the goal is to produce as much vaccine as possible.

2. With the vaccine produced, the US will PRIORITIZE getting US citizens vaccinated. This is not a ban, and does not say that every low risk US citizen MUST be vaccinated before any vaccine leaves the country. It does mean that the US will focus our efforts on getting our citizens vaccinated with US produced vaccine first.

3. Once the US is largely vaccinated, which they are now saying is literally weeks away, that US production of vaccine, on the order of projected billions of doses, will be used to get the rest of the world vaccinated, in concert with other vaccine producing nations.

Someone tell me what is so appaling about that. What I find amusing is that this is all in direct contravention to the "normal" bitch about the US - that we just want to make money off of everyone else. If that were the case, the US pharma companies would be selling this shit outside the US where they can make bank selling to other countries, but the US government has used its power to basically say "Nope, this is not going to be a way for pharma to make even more cash selling to the highest bidder!". Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

[Berkut]

Yeah, because Canada would definitely be producing their own vaccine if only the US would send them the supplies, right?

If Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccine produced elsewhere, outstanding! Then US vaccine can go to other countries that will need it. Why are you complaining about this?

What is your actual bitch here - is it that the US should be focused on getting Canada vaccinated with vaccine produced in the US with US materials BEFORE it gets its own citizens vaccinated?

Don't be silly.  Nobody would expect that.

But I would've hoped that the US would have co-ordinated it's vaccine production and distribution with its allies.  You know what, even if the US said "no exports until we vaccinate all Americans over 65" I'd be okay with that.  But the idea the rest of the world has to wait until every last low-risk US citizen is vaccinated is kind of galling.

That would be galling, but there is no evidence, other than CC's hysteria, that the US has said that is the case. The only thing that the US has said it is that it would prioritize US use of US resources and vaccine. The rest is your guys imagination.

I mean really, just read the fucking articles posted. There are only two of them, and they both DIRECTLY contradict the narrative you are getting enraged about!

The global pandemic has been all over the world's media for the last year.  There are a lot more than 2 news article out there.

Are you denying that the US has banned the export of vaccines to date?  Here's a useful Twitter thread setting out what happened, comparing US/UK/EU strategies on vaccine procurement.

https://twitter.com/DaveKeating/status/1372897635577761803

But the short version - the US, first under a Trump Executive Order, then under Biden's use of the Defense Production Act - has banned the export of vaccines.

The third psot in that thread is remarking on how the UK made funding conditional on the UK getting priority for any vaccine produced from that funding.

OMG WHAT TOTAL BASTARDS! They demanded that in return for funding the research, they get the vaccine first? Why, that is unconscionable!

Where is all the outrage at them doing something so horrific???


SO, no, the "short" version is not the that US has "banned the export of vaccines". It is that every single country is trying their best to get vaccine for themselves. Those that can produce it on their own are doing so, and those that can leverage their ability to fund production are doing so as well.


Is Canada using their ability to pay for vaccine to buy what they can, then decide that really the vaccine they just bought ought to go to Brazil instead? Or some of it?

[Grey Fox]

It is painfully clear how the US can get away with what they have done.  Their citizens have no clue.

And what is it that the US has done, exactly, that we are so clueless about?

We prioritized the US use of US produced raw materials to produce US produced vaccine to vaccinate American citizens, with the plan that once that is complete, we will then ship vaccine elsewhere.

Show me the part that is such a travesty. Still waiting for that. What should the US have done instead?

Well that. Be a concern citizen of the world & share some of the massive vaccine production the USA has. 58 days in the Biden presidency 100 millions dose have being used. Could have spared 5% of that to let Pfizer sell them to Canada.

[Berkut]

It is painfully clear how the US can get away with what they have done.  Their citizens have no clue.

And what is it that the US has done, exactly, that we are so clueless about?

We prioritized the US use of US produced raw materials to produce US produced vaccine to vaccinate American citizens, with the plan that once that is complete, we will then ship vaccine elsewhere.

Show me the part that is such a travesty. Still waiting for that. What should the US have done instead?

Well that. Be a concern citizen of the world & share some of the massive vaccine production the USA has. 58 days in the Biden presidency 100 millions dose have being used.

That is exactly what the plan is - to use the massive production capacity of the US to share that with the world. With the US getting priority for US produced vaccine.

Beebs has already stated that it would be stupid to imagine that the US (and presumably anyone else) would prioritize vaccinating other countries before their own, so apparently THAT can't be what is stoking this outrage.

So what is it?