Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[DGuller]

No question from me, but that is not at ALL what the claim is - the claim is that the US is hoarding supplies needed for manufacture. That is the entire point of the article posted - it has NOTHING to do with hoarding vacccine itself.

Just to be clear, if you trace my replies back to the original article linked, that article was about AZ vaccines being loaned by US to others.  Until US agreed to loan out the AZ vaccines, that was a case of US hoarding vaccines that were a backup plan for them, but the major source of vaccinations for others.

In WW2 the US looked at maximizing total allied production in the interest of defeating Germany, and revognized that in fact the USSR (as an example) could better apply the value of say, high test aviation fuel in 1943 then the US could, and hence spent massive resources shipping such things to the USSR. Not because they were altruistic, but because in the interest of meeting US national interests, winning the war, the best use of some of our supplies would be to have the USSR produce the weapons on the same continent that the war was being fought.

That is not at all the same here - there is no war going on, and the best way for the US to help the rest of the world is to ramp up our own ability to create vaccine as eficiently and quickly as possible, then ship that vaccine out to the world. That seems pretty obvious to me - if that isn't the case, then someone should make that particular argument to the US government, that in fact India or the EU or Russia could use some part of the US supply of whatever raw material is needed. But that article does not even begin to claim that is the case.

In my WW2 example, I meant US actions before Pearl Harbor, which were still in effect very hostile to the Axis (not that there is anything wrong with that).  An average US citizen might well have preferred FDR to work harder at staying out of the war.  Obviously once you're in a hot war, you're in a hot war.  As far as pandemic not being a war, obviously it isn't, but in a way it's not that much different.  For most of the western people alive, this is as close to war as it ever got to them, on the scale of danger to their life and the disruption to normal lifestyle.

[crazy canuck]

For people who might be confused by Berkut's ignorance, including Berkut, the EU is in fact sending vaccine to other countries.

For people who might be confused by CC hatred, the EU sending vaccine to other countries has nothing to do with his rage article.

Just read the fucking article. It says nothing about sending vaccine, and doesn't even say what you claim about raw materials.

Why is the US restricting supplies?
President Biden has asked his administration to identify potential shortfalls in materials required for vaccine production.

He has invoked the Defense Production Act (DPA), legislation from the 1950s which gives the US president powers to mobilise the domestic economy in response to emergencies.

The DPA allows the US to restrict the export of products which might be needed for domestic manufacturing.

The Biden administration said it would use the act to increase the list of items that US vaccine makers would get priority access to, such as special pumps and filtration units.

Representatives of various global vaccine makers raised concerns in early March, warning that:

Export restrictions from key suppliers could affect global production
Some items lack standardisation and are highly specialised
Replacement with substitutes sourced from elsewhere could take up to 12 months
Dr Sarah Schiffling, an expert on vaccine supply chains at Liverpool's John Moores University, says the pharmaceutical supply chain is very complex.

"Even when demand is very high, new suppliers can't spring up as quickly as they would in some other industries, or at least those new suppliers would not be trusted."

She also says that the US measures are as much a reaction to existing global shortages, as they are the cause of them.

"To some degree, shortages would be unavoidable for materials needed for any kind of product that is suddenly in demand around the world," she says.

What are you going on about?

You made the false claim that no democracy would share its vaccine.  Then you made the false claim that the EU isn't actually sending out the vaccine to other countries.

[Grey Fox]

I have not yet seen any hard reporting on the US withholding vaccines from others.  I've read a grand total of one article (in The Economist) and what I took away from that article was three things.

The US ordered a large amount of vaccines from various producers.

The Biden administration has employed some emergency powers to block the export of vaccine precursors.

The EU has blocked the export of AZ vaccine to Australia, vaccine Australia had already contracted for.

Does anyone have an article demonstrating that the US has blocked foreign purchases of US produced vaccine?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/11/2020-27455/ensuring-access-to-united-states-government-covid-19-vaccines and the Defense Production Act are stopping export of USA produced vaccine from being exported. Not bought by the USA, not developed. Simply produced.

I don't understand Berkut's reality denying argument that the USA is somehow being a great partner & friend in this pandemic. You have not been. It is a world shattering thing to learn.

[crazy canuck]

I have not yet seen any hard reporting on the US withholding vaccines from others.  I've read a grand total of one article (in The Economist) and what I took away from that article was three things.

The US ordered a large amount of vaccines from various producers.

The Biden administration has employed some emergency powers to block the export of vaccine precursors.

The EU has blocked the export of AZ vaccine to Australia, vaccine Australia had already contracted for.

Does anyone have an article demonstrating that the US has blocked foreign purchases of US produced vaccine?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/11/2020-27455/ensuring-access-to-united-states-government-covid-19-vaccines and the Defense Production Act are stopping export of USA produced vaccine from being exported.

I don't understand Berkut's reality denying argument that the USA is somehow being a great partner & friend in this pandemic. You have not been. It is a world shattering thing to learn.

It is just ignorance.  His first tirade claimed that no democracy sent vaccines to other countries.

[Berkut]

No question from me, but that is not at ALL what the claim is - the claim is that the US is hoarding supplies needed for manufacture. That is the entire point of the article posted - it has NOTHING to do with hoarding vacccine itself.

Just to be clear, if you trace my replies back to the original article linked, that article was about AZ vaccines being loaned by US to others.  Until US agreed to loan out the AZ vaccines, that was a case of US hoarding vaccines that were a backup plan for them, but the major source of vaccinations for others.

In WW2 the US looked at maximizing total allied production in the interest of defeating Germany, and revognized that in fact the USSR (as an example) could better apply the value of say, high test aviation fuel in 1943 then the US could, and hence spent massive resources shipping such things to the USSR. Not because they were altruistic, but because in the interest of meeting US national interests, winning the war, the best use of some of our supplies would be to have the USSR produce the weapons on the same continent that the war was being fought.

That is not at all the same here - there is no war going on, and the best way for the US to help the rest of the world is to ramp up our own ability to create vaccine as eficiently and quickly as possible, then ship that vaccine out to the world. That seems pretty obvious to me - if that isn't the case, then someone should make that particular argument to the US government, that in fact India or the EU or Russia could use some part of the US supply of whatever raw material is needed. But that article does not even begin to claim that is the case.

In my WW2 example, I meant US actions before Pearl Harbor, which were still in effect very hostile to the Axis (not that there is anything wrong with that).  An average US citizen might well have preferred FDR to work harder at staying out of the war.  Obviously once you're in a hot war, you're in a hot war.  As far as pandemic not being a war, obviously it isn't, but in a way it's not that much different.  For most of the western people alive, this is as close to war as it ever got to them, on the scale of danger to their life and the disruption to normal lifestyle.

But the way of waging the war against the pandemic is radically different. To fight WW2, you ahve to get military equipment into contact with the Axis. The best way to do so in 1940/41/42/43 was probably to send the war materials to produce that equipment to the USSR, because shipping the completed arms is just not as efficient (although we did that as well of course, depending on the specific equipment).

I don't think that is the case here - the best way to fight the global pandemic for the US is to produce as much vaccine as possible, then ship that vaccine where it is needed. I don't see anyone arguing that India can use raw materials produced in the US better than the US can, just bitching that in fact the US produces raw materials in the US that the US is then consuming to produce more vaccine. That complaint makes no sense without actual data that shows that someone else could better use those raw materials - the article cited makes no such claim.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/11/2020-27455/ensuring-access-to-united-states-government-covid-19-vaccines and the Defense Production Act are stopping export of USA produced vaccine from being exported. Not bought by the USA, not developed. Simply produced.

I don't understand Berkut's reality denying argument that the USA is somehow being a great partner & friend in this pandemic. You have not been. It is a world shattering thing to learn.

What I see in that document is that the US reserves the right to block exports, not that it has done so already.  And by implication, since the order was just published, the US has not been blocking vaccine exports up to this time.

[Berkut]

You made the false claim that no democracy would share its vaccine.  Then you made the false claim that the EU isn't actually sending out the vaccine to other countries.

I never made any such claim. You are lying. Again.

That claim doesn't even make sense, since we know perfectly well that the US is in fact intending to ship vaccine outside the US, and I believe has done so already.

[Berkut]

I have not yet seen any hard reporting on the US withholding vaccines from others.  I've read a grand total of one article (in The Economist) and what I took away from that article was three things.

The US ordered a large amount of vaccines from various producers.

The Biden administration has employed some emergency powers to block the export of vaccine precursors.

The EU has blocked the export of AZ vaccine to Australia, vaccine Australia had already contracted for.

Does anyone have an article demonstrating that the US has blocked foreign purchases of US produced vaccine?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/11/2020-27455/ensuring-access-to-united-states-government-covid-19-vaccines and the Defense Production Act are stopping export of USA produced vaccine from being exported. Not bought by the USA, not developed. Simply produced.

I don't understand Berkut's reality denying argument that the USA is somehow being a great partner & friend in this pandemic. You have not been. It is a world shattering thing to learn.

I never made any claim that the USA is "somehow a great partner and friend". That is simply not true.

The very article you cite, has the actual text of the US position in the EO:

Section 1. Purpose. Through unprecedented collaboration across the United States Government, industry, and international partners, the United States expects to soon have safe and effective COVID-19 vaccines available for the American people. To ensure the health and safety of our citizens, to strengthen our economy, and to enhance the security of our Nation, we must ensure that Americans have priority access to COVID-19 vaccines developed in the United States or procured by the United States Government ("United States Government COVID-19 Vaccines").

Sec. 2. Policy. It is the policy of the United States to ensure Americans have priority access to free, safe, and effective COVID-19 vaccines. After ensuring the ability to meet the vaccination needs of the American people, it is in the interest of the United States to facilitate international access to United States Government COVID-19 Vaccines.

What is the part that is such an egregious betrayal of humanity? That the US is going to use shit produced in the US to produce US vaccines, will then use those vaccines produced to vaccinate US citizens with the stuff produced in the US with US raw materials, and will then, using the well known US ability to mass produce stuff, facilitate international access to US produced vaccine.


Show me the part that is such a terrible, terrible thing.


Finally, note that this is a DIFFERENT argument entirely then the one about raw materials, which was incorrectly presented as well.

[Berkut]

I have not yet seen any hard reporting on the US withholding vaccines from others.  I've read a grand total of one article (in The Economist) and what I took away from that article was three things.

The US ordered a large amount of vaccines from various producers.

The Biden administration has employed some emergency powers to block the export of vaccine precursors.

The EU has blocked the export of AZ vaccine to Australia, vaccine Australia had already contracted for.

Does anyone have an article demonstrating that the US has blocked foreign purchases of US produced vaccine?

https://www.federalregister.gov/documents/2020/12/11/2020-27455/ensuring-access-to-united-states-government-covid-19-vaccines and the Defense Production Act are stopping export of USA produced vaccine from being exported.

I don't understand Berkut's reality denying argument that the USA is somehow being a great partner & friend in this pandemic. You have not been. It is a world shattering thing to learn.

It is just ignorance.  His first tirade claimed that no democracy sent vaccines to other countries.

Lie. Post that claim. You cannot, because you know it isn't true. Just like your original claim was not true, but you didn't care about that either.

[Barrister]

But the way of waging the war against the pandemic is radically different. To fight WW2, you ahve to get military equipment into contact with the Axis. The best way to do so in 1940/41/42/43 was probably to send the war materials to produce that equipment to the USSR, because shipping the completed arms is just not as efficient (although we did that as well of course, depending on the specific equipment).

I don't think that is the case here - the best way to fight the global pandemic for the US is to produce as much vaccine as possible, then ship that vaccine where it is needed. I don't see anyone arguing that India can use raw materials produced in the US better than the US can, just bitching that in fact the US produces raw materials in the US that the US is then consuming to produce more vaccine. That complaint makes no sense without actual data that shows that someone else could better use those raw materials - the article cited makes no such claim.

But Berkut - the problem is the US isn't doing that.  They aren't shipping vaccines anywhere.  The US is prohibiting the export of any vaccine manufactured in the US (well until you so recently agreed to "loan" nearly expired vaccine to Canada and Mexico that isn't even approved in the US).

[crazy canuck]

You made the false claim that no democracy would share its vaccine.  Then you made the false claim that the EU isn't actually sending out the vaccine to other countries.

I never made any such claim. You are lying. Again.

That claim doesn't even make sense, since we know perfectly well that the US is in fact intending to ship vaccine outside the US, and I believe has done so already.

I am responding to your post for the benefit of others. 

You said this,

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

When it was pointed out that the EU disproves your claim, you asked for a cite.  When you were given further information you falsely claimed that the EU was not sending vaccine but only what is necessary for other countries to manufacture their own vaccines.

That is patently false.  Canada is not manufacturing vaccine.  It is buying the vaccine directly.

Lastly, as for your claim, that "we know perfectly well the US is shipping vaccine"  - No, it is a very limited amount of the AZ vaccine the US is hording.  AZ won't be approved in the US until probably April.  By that time it will not need the 10 million doses it is sitting on.  Before accusing me of lying, get our facts straight.

Actually just Fuck off.

[Berkut]

But the way of waging the war against the pandemic is radically different. To fight WW2, you ahve to get military equipment into contact with the Axis. The best way to do so in 1940/41/42/43 was probably to send the war materials to produce that equipment to the USSR, because shipping the completed arms is just not as efficient (although we did that as well of course, depending on the specific equipment).

I don't think that is the case here - the best way to fight the global pandemic for the US is to produce as much vaccine as possible, then ship that vaccine where it is needed. I don't see anyone arguing that India can use raw materials produced in the US better than the US can, just bitching that in fact the US produces raw materials in the US that the US is then consuming to produce more vaccine. That complaint makes no sense without actual data that shows that someone else could better use those raw materials - the article cited makes no such claim.

But Berkut - the problem is the US isn't doing that.  They aren't shipping vaccines anywhere.  The US is prohibiting the export of any vaccine manufactured in the US (well until you so recently agreed to "loan" nearly expired vaccine to Canada and Mexico that isn't even approved in the US).

But that is incorrect. The US has not prohibited the export of vaccine, they have simply stated that the priority for vaccine produced in the US is for vaccinating US citizens, and after that priority is met, vaccine can and will be shipped internationally. You are complaining that the US isn't doing step 3 when we are still on step 2.

But even THAT is not the point that was raised and you all got enraged about because you didn't actually read the article posted, you just accepted CC's "interpretation" of it.

Using the WW2 analogy, you are complaining that in 1940 the US us not sending newly produced aircraft carriers to Britain, rather then sending them to the US Navy, who needs and can immediately use them better then Britain can.

I am completely confident that once the fucking mess Trump left things in is cleaned up (which is happening amazingly quickly) the US will produce literally billions of doses of vaccine that will be used outside the US. Because you know, all Americans are assholes that cannot be trusted.

[crazy canuck]

But the way of waging the war against the pandemic is radically different. To fight WW2, you ahve to get military equipment into contact with the Axis. The best way to do so in 1940/41/42/43 was probably to send the war materials to produce that equipment to the USSR, because shipping the completed arms is just not as efficient (although we did that as well of course, depending on the specific equipment).

I don't think that is the case here - the best way to fight the global pandemic for the US is to produce as much vaccine as possible, then ship that vaccine where it is needed. I don't see anyone arguing that India can use raw materials produced in the US better than the US can, just bitching that in fact the US produces raw materials in the US that the US is then consuming to produce more vaccine. That complaint makes no sense without actual data that shows that someone else could better use those raw materials - the article cited makes no such claim.

But Berkut - the problem is the US isn't doing that.  They aren't shipping vaccines anywhere.  The US is prohibiting the export of any vaccine manufactured in the US (well until you so recently agreed to "loan" nearly expired vaccine to Canada and Mexico that isn't even approved in the US).

But that is incorrect. The US has not prohibited the export of vaccine,

No, the US banned all export.  Except now for this very limited release of AZ to Canada and Mexico.

I am completely confident that once the fucking mess Trump left things in is cleaned up (which is happening amazingly quickly) the US will produce literally billions of doses of vaccine that will be used outside the US. Because you know, all Americans are assholes that cannot be trusted.

This is fucking hiliarious.

By that time, Canada will be fully vaccinated by vaccines obtained by from its other allies. 

And things really are not so different under Biden, he is the one who restricted supplies for making vaccine after all.

[Berkut]

You made the false claim that no democracy would share its vaccine.  Then you made the false claim that the EU isn't actually sending out the vaccine to other countries.

I never made any such claim. You are lying. Again.

That claim doesn't even make sense, since we know perfectly well that the US is in fact intending to ship vaccine outside the US, and I believe has done so already.

I am responding to your post for the benefit of others. 

You said this,

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

When it was pointed out that the EU disproves your claim, you asked for a cite.  When you were given further information you falsely claimed that the EU was not sending vaccine but only what is necessary for other countries to manufacture their own vaccines.

That is patently false.  Canada is not manufacturing vaccine.  It is buying the vaccine directly.

Lastly, as for your claim, that "we know perfectly well the US is shipping vaccine"  - No, it is a very limited amount of the AZ vaccine the US is hording.  AZ won't be approved in the US until probably April.  By that time it will not need the 10 million doses it is sitting on.  Before accusing me of lying, get our facts straight.

Actually just Fuck off.

So you cut my response up in order to claim that I said something, that even in the cut up, out of context response, I never said.

You are so married to hating Americans not matter what, you cannot see what is right in front of you.

The shortage of raw materials, PER THE ARTICLE YOU POSTED, is NOT because the US is hoarding them, but simply because the world does not have the capacity to produce what is needed.

The US is in fact going to send massive amounts of vaccine outside the US, and even when we do, why, we will even send it to American hating bigots like you. Just not until we finish actually vaccinating Americans, most of whom don't spend their time inventing reason to hate their friends and neighbors.

[Barrister]

But that is incorrect. The US has not prohibited the export of vaccine, they have simply stated that the priority for vaccine produced in the US is for vaccinating US citizens, and after that priority is met, vaccine can and will be shipped internationally.

But even THAT is not the point that was raised and you all got enraged about because you didn't actually read the article posted, you just accepted CC's "interpretation" of it.

Using the WW2 analogy, you are complaining that in 1940 the US us not sending newly produced aircraft carriers to Britain, rather then sending them to the US Navy, who needs and can immediately use them better then Britain can.

I am completely confident that once the fucking mess Trump left things in is cleaned up (which is happening amazingly quickly) the US will produce literally billions of doses of vaccine that will be used outside the US. Because you know, all Americans are assholes that cannot be trusted.

Please trust me when I say I have not read what that other poster has said.

In one sense you're right.  The US has said they'll very happily ship vaccines around the world - once every US citizen has been vaccinated.  But until then any vaccine export is banned.

You'll forgive the rest of the world however for disagreeing most strenuously that letting people around the world get sick and die while you vaccinate low-risk US citizens is the best use of those resources.