Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Berkut]

It seems like it'd be the easiest PR win to release doses - especially to other countries in the Americas - which will have zero impact on their own vaccination program.

US and Russia are the opposites in that regard.  Russia gives Sputnik out as a PR exercise to everyone except their own citizens.  US isn't giving out their vaccines to anyone, because doing anything to potentially slow down the vaccination of the US citizens would go down very poorly with the US citizens, and we know what the US citizens are capable of.

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

[Tamas]

I don't see how we can consider nation states a good idea and then blame them for prioritising their own nations. That's the whole idea behind their existence.

[The Brain]

I don't see how we can consider nation states a good idea and then blame them for prioritising their own nations. That's the whole idea behind their existence.

I don't really see non-nation states (like the US) acting differently.

[Tamas]

I don't see how we can consider nation states a good idea and then blame them for prioritising their own nations. That's the whole idea behind their existence.

I don't really see non-nation states (like the US) acting differently.

You know what I mean, don't demean yourself.

[The Brain]

I don't see how we can consider nation states a good idea and then blame them for prioritising their own nations. That's the whole idea behind their existence.

I don't really see non-nation states (like the US) acting differently.

You know what I mean, don't demean yourself.

I actually don't know.

[Tamas]

I don't see how we can consider nation states a good idea and then blame them for prioritising their own nations. That's the whole idea behind their existence.

I don't really see non-nation states (like the US) acting differently.

p



You know what I mean, don't demean yourself.

I actually don't know.

If we consider the existence of nation/tribal/political/whatever states whose role is to defend and prioritise a specific group of people (their citizens) as good/acceptable/proper, then we lose the moral ground to complain when they prioritise their specific group of people (their citizens) in time of a crisis.

[Sheilbh]

So most countries who suspended the AZ vaccine have started using it again - which is good and I think there's good messaging with politicians getting the AZ vaccine to try and restore/build trust.

But France are only recommending it for the over 55s:

Danny Kemp
@dannyctkemp
France throws a giant new spanner into the works: now health authority recommends that AstraZeneca vaccine should be used *only for over-55s*, following EMA decision
Comes after EMA said that cases of rare type of blood clots were 'almost all in women under 55'. (Out of 20 million vaccinated in UK and EEA there were 7 cases of clots in multiple vessels and 18 of clots in vessels leading to brain)
EMA said Thursday vaccine was 'safe and effective', no indication of higher risk of blood clots vs background rates in populatoin - but 'possible link' to those two rare types of clots with low blood platelets

I get there's a higher level of scepticism/anti-vaxxer feeling in France so the authorities want to show they're taking safety seriously. But I feel like scepticism is a little bit justified given that in 3 months France has gone from statements that AZ doesn't work as expected and is "quasi-ineffective" in the over 60s, to only allowing it for the under 65s, to allowing it for everyone, to suspending it, to only allowing it for the over 55s. Maybe I'm wrong but looking at that it just feels like the authorities don't have a proper grip - I feel like that is going to hurt credibility.

Edit: And incidentally apparently cancellations and people walking out of vaccine centres here that were using AZ jumped to about 10% of appointments during the suspension - it's now falling again but I think that explains why there's been so much push back from the various regulators/medical officers here around safety.

[Berkut]

So most countries who suspended the AZ vaccine have started using it again - which is good and I think there's good messaging with politicians getting the AZ vaccine to try and restore/build trust.

But France are only recommending it for the over 55s:

Danny Kemp
@dannyctkemp
France throws a giant new spanner into the works: now health authority recommends that AstraZeneca vaccine should be used *only for over-55s*, following EMA decision
Comes after EMA said that cases of rare type of blood clots were 'almost all in women under 55'. (Out of 20 million vaccinated in UK and EEA there were 7 cases of clots in multiple vessels and 18 of clots in vessels leading to brain)
EMA said Thursday vaccine was 'safe and effective', no indication of higher risk of blood clots vs background rates in populatoin - but 'possible link' to those two rare types of clots with low blood platelets

I get there's a higher level of scepticism/anti-vaxxer feeling in France so the authorities want to show they're taking safety seriously. But I feel like scepticism is a little bit justified given that in 3 months France has gone from statements that AZ doesn't work as expected and is "quasi-ineffective" in the over 60s, to only allowing it for the under 65s, to allowing it for everyone, to suspending it, to only allowing it for the over 55s. Maybe I'm wrong but looking at that it just feels like the authorities don't have a proper grip - I feel like that is going to hurt credibility.

Edit: And incidentally apparently cancellations and people walking out of vaccine centres here that were using AZ jumped to about 10% of appointments during the suspension - it's now falling again but I think that explains why there's been so much push back from the various regulators/medical officers here around safety.

This is why politicians getting overly involved in matters of science always ends badly. Because they make decisions about science based on perception and politics, and regardless of how it turns out, it makes the science skeptics even more skeptical. I mean, clearly those damn scientists have no idea what is going on!

And the politicians in hindsight are never willing to own the decisions. They are perfectly happy blaming their own stupid decisions back on the scientists.

[Jacob]

I don't think it was inevitable that the US - and other countries - were going to be very protective of their vaccine stocks, especially along the lines of "all of our people before any of yours." I think that's the result of how specific politicians handled the issue and specific actions and policy decisions. I agree that at this point it's politically risky to act otherwise, but I don't think if the crisis had been handled differently - and the rhetoric around had been different - it could have gone otherwise.

[Barrister]

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

The EU would seem to be the obvious example proving your statement to be false.

[Berkut]

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

The EU would seem to be the obvious example proving your statement to be false.

The EU is sending vaccine supplies that they need to other countries? Cite please.

[crazy canuck]

It seems like it'd be the easiest PR win to release doses - especially to other countries in the Americas - which will have zero impact on their own vaccination program.

US and Russia are the opposites in that regard.  Russia gives Sputnik out as a PR exercise to everyone except their own citizens.  US isn't giving out their vaccines to anyone, because doing anything to potentially slow down the vaccination of the US citizens would go down very poorly with the US citizens, and we know what the US citizens are capable of.

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

This is an amazing example of how uninformed Americans are about the world, and in turn how that ignorance affects their politics.

Berkut, one of the better informed Americans, has no idea that democracies, outside the US, are allowing vaccines to leave their borders. 

Yet another data point for why everyone else needs to make plans for future crisis that in does not include the US.

[crazy canuck]

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

The EU would seem to be the obvious example proving your statement to be false.

The EU is sending vaccine supplies that they need to other countries? Cite please.

Belguim, as an example, sending vaccine to Canada.  Where the hell do you think we are getting it from?

[Grey Fox]

The last clause is completely unnecessary.

The US is going to take care of US citizens first not because "we know what US citizens are capable of" but because in a democracy, that is the only possible way a functioning society is ever going to react.

And its the same way every other functioning democracy is acting.

Note that the article, when you actually read it, does not at all say that there is a shortage of supplies needed for vaccines because the US is hoarding it all. It is saying that the US is hoarding their own manufacturing output because there is a shortage of those supplies. Again....why in the world would anyone thing they would do any differently, or even suggest that doing differently ought to be expected or make any kind of political, economic, or even moral sense?

If US manufacturers of vaccines are looking to ramp up production in a manner never before seen, and as such say "Hey, we need a LOT more of those specialized vaccine RNA bag thingies that are hyper specialized and only made in a couple places in the world, ad everyone else needs them as well, so there is going to be a projected world wide shortage of them, and we are pretty much going to need all of the ones produced in the US if you want us to be able to produce the quantity needed to vaccinate the US population Mr. Biden...." then of course the US is going to say "Yep, that stuff isn't getting exported anymore!".

If anyone thinks any other democratic country would do any differently, they are fooling themselves. And that has nothing to do with the especial nefariousness of Americans compared to the ROTW.

The EU would seem to be the obvious example proving your statement to be false.

The EU is sending vaccine supplies that they need to other countries? Cite please.

Canada
Australia
Israel
Japan

[Berkut]

Interesting - because the article in question was not talking about vaccines at all, it was talking about supplies used to produce vaccine, specifically supplies manufactured in the US going to US manufacturers of the vaccine.

Not surprising that CC is ready to just lie about what the article says to promote his bigotry. A little ironic as well, but hardly surprising.