Coronavirus Sars-CoV-2/Covid-19 Megathread

[Threviel]

I don't really know much about internal French politics as I cannot speak French.

In my mind he has been the only inspirational leader in a major western country since Trump got elected. In a class of "special" leaders he stands head and shoulders above the rest, which perhaps is damning with faint praise. And in my francophobic mind the first time that has happened.

His free market politics is a fresh wind in a France that other nations laugh at when it comes to economics.

Squabbles about culture is so boringly French. Oh la la, he used an archaic term, bring up the guillotine!

[Sheilbh]

In my mind he has been the only inspirational leader in a major western country since Trump got elected. In a class of "special" leaders he stands head and shoulders above the rest, which perhaps is damning with faint praise. And in my francophobic mind the first time that has happened.

Agreed. I think he's the only leader in the Western world with a vision for his country and for Europe. I don't always agree with it but I think it's positive. And the strange thing is from the outside it looks like he managed to convince everyone he was sort of liberal, centrist technocrat but has governed like a Gaullist.

He might not succeed but I quite like him.

Edit: Also he is the greatest politician the world's ever seen if he is behind the rise of the RN to defeat the right

[Duque de Bragança]

I don't really know much about internal French politics as I cannot speak French.
In my mind he has been the only inspirational leader in a major western country since Trump got elected. In a class of "special" leaders he stands head and shoulders above the rest, which perhaps is damning with faint praise. And in my francophobic mind the first time that has happened.

His free market politics is a fresh wind in a France that other nations laugh at when it comes to economics.

Squabbles about culture is so boringly French. Oh la la, he used an archaic term, bring up the guillotine!

That pretty much precludes any understanding the political situation and hence any appraisal of Macron's policies. An uninformed opinion is worthless, sorry.
Not knowing French does not help indeed, but still indicates intellectual laziness (hello translations).

Rather than francophobic mind, I'd say ignorant, cf. "archaic term". It happened more than once, and sometimes it's more than archaic as in using outdated popular expressions, or popular-sounding expressions which nobody used or uses, in a desperate attempt to look less estranged from the plebs. I must confess it was comical sometimes, and that's not just on the account of him living with a French and Theatre teacher.

Free market politics have had their champions in France, it's just that Macron was a PS member, where apart from Dominique Strauss-Kahn they were not that common. More so in the right, though the colbertist wing was still powerful. But then Macron mixes up (economic) Liberalism and Lutheranism which is comical for an investment banker (Luther was against loan with interest rates). So elitist (attended the best schools in France) and yet so ignorant.

To sum up, Macron is just a young Juppé (former Chirac era prime minister) 2.0 who got lucky. A French liberal (European sense). As you say, making him stand head and shoulders above the rest is damning with faint praise.

No real positive change but cosmetics, compared to Hollande, the previous president who named him Economy minister. Do I need to mention the whole Yellow vest crisis?
Jury is still out on the pensions reforms.

[The Minsky Moment]

The whole Jupiterian stance points to a flawed understanding of republicanism by either the French generally or by Macron specifically.  I suspect it's the latter.

Just because the 5th Republic Presidency was modeled for De Gaulle doesn't mean that all subsequent leaders should therefore model themselves on de Gaulle, a unique and arguably inimitable personality.  Hollande was on the right track in deflating the grandiosity of the Presidency but the execution went horribly awry.

[The Minsky Moment]

To sum up, Macron is just a young Juppé (former Chirac era prime minister) 2.0 who got lucky.

That's not damning criticism at least in my book.  You could get a lost worse than a revamped Juppe.  Look at what we have to deal with in the USA.

[Duque de Bragança]

In my mind he has been the only inspirational leader in a major western country since Trump got elected. In a class of "special" leaders he stands head and shoulders above the rest, which perhaps is damning with faint praise. And in my francophobic mind the first time that has happened.

Agreed. I think he's the only leader in the Western world with a vision for his country and for Europe. I don't always agree with it but I think it's positive. And the strange thing is from the outside it looks like he managed to convince everyone he was sort of liberal, centrist technocrat but has governed like a Gaullist.

He might not succeed but I quite like him.

He does not govern like a Gaullist, he claims to be one since de Gaulle is still popular. Macron is an opportunist demagogue, on good days. I would rate Macron as not as bad as Trudeau. Beyond that, not much i can say in his favor. The whole Covid crisis was as mismanaged as in Spain with the last mask factory let closed in his mandate. Better than Trump or Mijair Bolsonaro ? Sure, tibi gratias Jovi!
Incidentally, France was well prepared for that kind of crises 15 years ago under Sarkozy, at least in the beginning, but let the whole advantage disappear, with Macron's free trade stance putting the last nail in the coffin.
Long explanation in French here, for those curious:
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/maladie/coronavirus/enquete-franceinfo-comment-la-france-a-sacrifie-sa-principale-usine-de-masques-basee-en-bretagne_3896665.html?fbclid=IwAR3jcnruGbg_Qx6uQdGMxXngyUzfatQ310jjFj9eCsWdfulcz04eNLNNWGU

No Gaullist would claim there is not a French culture for starters. It's not like De Gaulle was a free marketer anyways cf. "la politique de la France ne fait pas à la corbeille" quote about Stock Exchanges. I'm not sure Gaulle would approve the post-Maastricht EU though he would probably rejoice at Brexit, provided he could come to terms with his former PM allowing the UK to enter 

Edit: Also he is the greatest politician the world's ever seen if he is behind the rise of the RN to defeat the right

Indeed that cannot be him. That's Mitterand, who in order to stay in power after the end of his promised socialist policies of 1981-83, unrealistic ones, truth be said, came up with this tactic.

[Duque de Bragança]

To sum up, Macron is just a young Juppé (former Chirac era prime minister) 2.0 who got lucky.

That's not damning criticism at least in my book.  You could get a lost worse than a revamped Juppe.  Look at what we have to deal with in the USA.

Don't be so pessimistic, I am sure the US could find a revamped convict, without necessarily a long hard search. 

[Sheilbh]

He does not govern like a Gaullist, he claims to be one since de Gaulle is still popular. Macron is an opportunist demagogue, on good days. I would rate Macron as not as bad as Trudeau. Beyond that, not much i can say in his favor. The whole Covid crisis was as mismanaged as in Spain with the last mask factory let closed in his mandate. Better than Trump or Mijair Bolsonaro ? Sure, tibi gratias Jovi!

Because if there's one thing you could never describe de Gaulle as it's an opportunistic demagogue?

Alternate view is that France had some of the worst outbreaks in Europe in Paris and Grand Est and managed to contain it to those regions - so have generally had a better response than the UK, Spain or Italy. Since then France has led and been essential on the European recovery approach (which I'm doubtful of).

From a UK perspective a lot of the rhetoric around Macron and in French politics in general reminds me of us. There's a lot of nationalism in the discourse which is actually tied up in our narratives of decline as much as any positive view.

Incidentally, France was well prepared for that kind of crises 15 years ago under Sarkozy, at least in the beginning, but let the whole advantage disappear, with Macron's free trade stance putting the last nail in the coffin.
Long explanation in French here, for those curious:
https://www.francetvinfo.fr/sante/maladie/coronavirus/enquete-franceinfo-comment-la-france-a-sacrifie-sa-principale-usine-de-masques-basee-en-bretagne_3896665.html?fbclid=IwAR3jcnruGbg_Qx6uQdGMxXngyUzfatQ310jjFj9eCsWdfulcz04eNLNNWGU

I mean that's a narrow example - but I remember reading about Sarko's health minister who spent a lot of money preparing for, I think, avian flu and being roundly attacked in the press and by other parties for wasting that money because it didn't become so bad. So France had spent hundreds of millions of Euros on a vaccine they didn't need. The same happened here - I distinctly remember the Brown government being torn at by the Tories and the press for wasting money on a pandemic that didn't materialise.

I hope the politics of that shifts.

No Gaullist would claim there is not a French culture for starters. It's not like De Gaulle was a free marketer anyways cf. "la politique de la France ne fait pas à la corbeille" quote about Stock Exchanges. I'm not sure Gaulle would approve the post-Maastricht EU though he would probably rejoice at Brexit, provided he could come to terms with his former PM allowing the UK to enter 

Gaullism isn't a fossilised set of beliefs. I look at a French President with extreme ambition for France and Europe's role in the world, wanting a vision of "modernisation" as key to France's role who is actually being influential on the world stage plus some dick-swinging in the Middle East and North Africa causing embarassments for his European partners - and to me that looks a lot like a modern version of Gaullism.

Indeed that cannot be him. That's Mitterand, who in order to stay in power after the end of his promised socialist policies of 1981-83, unrealistic ones, truth be said, came up with this tactic.

I think it's assigning extraordinary power to left-wing politicians to blame them in some deliberate way for the rise of the far-right - in terms of housekeeping I think it's up to the left-wing parties to police their borders against the Trots, entryists etc and it's up to the right-wing parties to police their borders.

And again - I could be wrong - but I don't think anyone ever thought Mitterand was a conviction politician who would keep his alliance with the PCF and follow through on the 110 Propositions no matter the consequences. My impression of Mitterand is that he was always political and always flexible in every situation.

[Sheilbh]

The whole Jupiterian stance points to a flawed understanding of republicanism by either the French generally or by Macron specifically.  I suspect it's the latter.

Just because the 5th Republic Presidency was modeled for De Gaulle doesn't mean that all subsequent leaders should therefore model themselves on de Gaulle, a unique and arguably inimitable personality.  Hollande was on the right track in deflating the grandiosity of the Presidency but the execution went horribly awry.

Maybe of French republicanism, but I think Jupiterianism is built into the 5th Republic. I don't think there's a way around it because the office is modeled on de Gaulle who is, as you say, unique and inimitable. I can't think of any other system of government so designed to make its occupiers fail - because no-one will be de Gaulle again. I think it's a structural issue - hopefully it'll be fixed by a 6th Republic before the very much non-remote possibility of a female member of the Le Pen family taking over.

[Duque de Bragança]

Because if there's one thing you could never describe de Gaulle as it's an opportunistic demagogue?

Opportunistic demagogues don't wait 12 years to regain power. 
Plus, he left France in a much better position than when he found it.

Alternate view is that France had some of the worst outbreaks in Europe in Paris and Grand Est and managed to contain it to those regions - so have generally had a better response than the UK, Spain or Italy. Since then France has led and been essential on the European recovery approach (which I'm doubtful of).

Having one of the worst outbreaks in Europe is not alternative view. It was Île-de-France, Grand Est and North plus some Overseas territories, still ongoing there. As for better than Spain, sorry that' a no e.g the whole mask debacle. Shortage? Let's pretend they are not efficient to fight the disease.
Better than Italy is hard to judge since Italy was the first to be hit, without the hard lessons taught there being put to use.
Nobody blames Macron for that February Evangelical Christian sect meeting in Mulhouse spreading it all over France but the masks and medical goods sent for free to China in the early part for free then having to import masks from China since stocks were depleted won't be forgotten.
By this token, Prime Minister Bosta (sic) of Portugal is among the greatest statement of our time.

From a UK perspective a lot of the rhetoric around Macron and in French politics in general reminds me of us. There's a lot of nationalism in the discourse which is actually tied up in our narratives of decline as much as any positive view.

For good reason. The French president is an elected monarch. 

I mean that's a narrow example - but I remember reading about Sarko's health minister who spent a lot of money preparing for, I think, avian flu and being roundly attacked in the press and by other parties for wasting that money because it didn't become so bad. So France had spent hundreds of millions of Euros on a vaccine they didn't need. The same happened here - I distinctly remember the Brown government being torn at by the Tories and the press for wasting money on a pandemic that didn't materialise.

I hope the politics of that shifts.

Roselyne Bachelot indeed. Time proved her right. Guess what, she is part of the government now, following the latest reshuffle. As culture minister. 

Gaullism isn't a fossilised set of beliefs. I look at a French President with extreme ambition for France and Europe's role in the world, wanting a vision of "modernisation" as key to France's role who is actually being influential on the world stage plus some dick-swinging in the Middle East and North Africa causing embarassments for his European partners - and to me that looks a lot like a modern version of Gaullism.

Gaullist may not be a fossilized set of beliefs, but is more consistent than whatever Macron claims to be or wants to do. Not so long ago, under Flanby, Macron claimed to be part of the Left though noting truthfully he was no socialist. Then it was some kind of post-Bayrouism, trying to escape to the right and left wing sterile oppositional dialectic.
So more influential than Flanby maybe, but Sarkozy also had ambitions...
Macron's PR is extremely ambitious and seems to work best abroad. Gaffes not withstanding e.g "leprosy". Beyond that, not many practical effects, unlike under de Gaulle.

I think it's assigning extraordinary power to left-wing politicians to blame them in some deliberate way for the rise of the far-right - in terms of housekeeping I think it's up to the left-wing parties to police their borders against the Trots, entryists etc and it's up to the right-wing parties to police their borders.

And again - I could be wrong - but I don't think anyone ever thought Mitterand was a conviction politician who would keep his alliance with the PCF and follow through on the 110 Propositions no matter the consequences. My impression of Mitterand is that he was always political and always flexible in every situation.

Mitterrand not a conviction politician? Indeed! He started on the far-right, demonstrating against a so-called invasion of "métèques" (bloody suspicious foreigners) in the '30s, was a Pétainist and received a Francisque award (for non-Jews only), and was interior minister during the Algerian War with a strong French Algeria stance.
He managed to pluck the communist chicken by using their votes to get elected  and then getting rid of them when they were no longer needed. This gave a famous Atlantist speech "I am against Euromissiles too, yet pacifism is in the West while the Euromissiles are in the East. That looks to me like an unequal relationship.".

So yes, very flexible. Before that, alliance between the non-communist left and PC was as taboo as is an alliance between the conservatives and FN/RN nowadays. The break-up of this taboo was advocated in one or his books (le Coup d'État permanent I believe) as a necessary step to gain power.
Underhanded nurturing the FN through lax judiciary policies and an early multiculturalist agenda was invented by him and never practiced better. There was also the temporary switch to partial proportional voting in 1986 to lessen the predictable defeat at legislate elections, i.e direct nurturing.
As for keeping (former) Trots in their place, Rocard and Jospin can attest it. The latter even refusing parts of Mitterand's legacy cf. "droit d'inventaire".

Of course, not so brilliant "conservatives" such as Chirac allowed it to happen, back when the program of RPR and FN were not that far apart on immigration. FN was atlantist and free market  back then. It cost Chirac the 1988 presidential election.
In 1990, even a younger Juppé advocated positions that are even more radical than those of the RN today.

[Syt]

Austria is at >1500 cases, about 1/6 of the peak numbers in early April. In Vienna we're at 550, about 1/3 of the peak numbers. There has been a recent cluster in the Serb-Orthodox community. Their churches have suspended services for the time being.

[celedhring]

So, the Catalan president just gave a press conference. In Catalan he was all "if people don't follow recomendations in 10 days it will be DOOM" and then he gave an adress - in English - for the foreign press which was "Catalonia is safe! Come visit!". I guess he thinks people don't speak other languages 

[Admiral Yi]

Heard on NPR that the GOP is talking about a trillion in stimulus 2.0 and the Democrats are talking about three trillion.

A trillion here and a trillion there....

[Tamas]

Heard on NPR that the GOP is talking about a trillion in stimulus 2.0 and the Democrats are talking about three trillion.

A trillion here and a trillion there....

What's a trillion between friends?

[Razgovory]

Heard on NPR that the GOP is talking about a trillion in stimulus 2.0 and the Democrats are talking about three trillion.

A trillion here and a trillion there....

Yeah, that is getting a bit worrying.