What do we do about Michael Jackson?

[Barrister]

Beethoven was a famous bastard for example, the "national" anthem of the EU is his.

A documentary without any proof is not cause enough for a damnatio memoriae in my mind. Now Jacksons music was crap and shouldn't be listened to anyhow, but that's beside the point.

How much more proof do you need than the detailed statements of two of Jackson's victims?

Personally, I always believed he was a paedophile since the mid-90s trial.

Filtered through the legal system with a conviction in the end, well, then two witnesses is plenty.

Filtered through a documentary two witnesses mean nothing. Next documentary will have plenty of witnesses to the contrary. They are not building a case, they are making a TV show.

It's not like Jackson ever molested children in front of other people!  He only ever did it behind closed doors.  We know from existing evidence Jackson would befriend young children and their families and would often sleep with them alone in his bedroom.

[derspiess]

He's dead, so we do nothing.  I like a small number of his songs and would not want those to just vanish from the public space.  Doesn't seem like it would accomplish much. 

But the people who are convinced that all the allegations were just a big conspiracy-- we need to go after them 

[The Brain]

He's dead, so we do nothing.  I like a small number of his songs and would not want those to just vanish from the public space.  Doesn't seem like it would accomplish much. 

But the people who are convinced that all the allegations were just a big conspiracy-- we need to go after them 

How do you feel about the works of criminals who are still alive?

[viper37]

So what say you Languish?  Is it right to still listen to Jackson's music?  Should radio stations stop playing his songs?  Or do you still doubt that Jackson was a serial sexual abuser?

I'm not sure what to think.
I'm inclined to believe the alleged victims.
No, strike that.  I do believe them, their story is credible, despite past testimony.
Too many allegations of the same incidents, similar patterns to be a total fabrication.
Did it happen exactly as they describe?  Maybe not.  Did sexual contacts between Jackson and underage boys happenned?  I'm pretty sure now.

I had completely forgotten about the details of these past incidents.  I wasn't a Jackson fan by then and felt unconcerned.  I read the big titles, a few newspiece here&there, but it's not like I had high speed internet and forum filled to the brim with lawyers to explain the finer points of every legal details of the trial(s?).

Was he a great artist of his field?  Certainly.

Was he a tormented soul with a difficult childhood?  Certainly.

Was he a pedo?  In most likelyhood, yes.  But it's a moot point now that the man is deceased.

I don't think radio or djs should play his songs, but I'm not going to boycoot anyone over this either.
They do or they don't, it's their choice.

[Barrister]

So the idea of "banning" MJs songs isn't to punish MJ - he's obviously very dead.

It's more that knowing what we know, listening to his music demonstrates a lack of empathy to victims of sexual abuse.  SUch music may be triggering to others.  It may in fact bother the listener themselves to take enjoyment from such a monster.

[viper37]

But there are plenty of older, celebrated literary works by people that, when we really look at it from a modern sense, were very nasty people who were direct/indirect actors in the deaths of many. 

The problem is, the alleged acts where criminal and non socially acceptable acts back when they were committed in the case of Michael Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan soldiers committed a lot of atrocities, raping/killing children or their corpses among them, but it wasn't a punishable offense back then, when you did that to your ennemies.

[Eddie Teach]

triggering

Oh ffs.

[viper37]

So the idea of "banning" MJs songs isn't to punish MJ - he's obviously very dead.

It's more that knowing what we know, listening to his music demonstrates a lack of empathy to victims of sexual abuse.  SUch music may be triggering to others.  It may in fact bother the listener themselves to take enjoyment from such a monster.

There is an estate that still derives profits from his music and is very much involved in perpetuating his legacy and preventing the truth from coming out.

And again, I stress my personal opinion.  Lots of people lack empathy. They want to, they do it, not my business.
I ain't gonna go on crusade over this.
But I'm not gonna listen to a radio station when it plays Jackson's music, I'm not gonna play it myself either and will never request such a song from a dj.

[The Brain]

But there are plenty of older, celebrated literary works by people that, when we really look at it from a modern sense, were very nasty people who were direct/indirect actors in the deaths of many. 

The problem is, the alleged acts where criminal and non socially acceptable acts back when they were committed in the case of Michael Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan soldiers committed a lot of atrocities, raping/killing children or their corpses among them, but it wasn't a punishable offense back then, when you did that to your ennemies.

Which literary works do you have in mind?

[Barrister]

But there are plenty of older, celebrated literary works by people that, when we really look at it from a modern sense, were very nasty people who were direct/indirect actors in the deaths of many. 

The problem is, the alleged acts where criminal and non socially acceptable acts back when they were committed in the case of Michael Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan soldiers committed a lot of atrocities, raping/killing children or their corpses among them, but it wasn't a punishable offense back then, when you did that to your ennemies.

Which literary works do you have in mind?

Not sure who Toni was thinking of, but take someone like Rudyard Kipling.  Always regarded as a good writer, his unabashedly pro-EMpire colonialist attitude have diminished his reputation, even though such attitudes were common during his lifetime.

[The Brain]

But there are plenty of older, celebrated literary works by people that, when we really look at it from a modern sense, were very nasty people who were direct/indirect actors in the deaths of many. 

The problem is, the alleged acts where criminal and non socially acceptable acts back when they were committed in the case of Michael Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan soldiers committed a lot of atrocities, raping/killing children or their corpses among them, but it wasn't a punishable offense back then, when you did that to your ennemies.

Which literary works do you have in mind?

Not sure who Toni was thinking of, but take someone like Rudyard Kipling.  Always regarded as a good writer, his unabashedly pro-EMpire colonialist attitude have diminished his reputation, even though such attitudes were common during his lifetime.

I was asking viper.

[viper37]

Is it too much of a leap to say we should remove/hide any kind of media (e.g. books) done by anyone who did something naughty?

Presumably this would cut out the inputs of anyone involved in killing/causing the death of people in a way that we don't now approve of.

Or maybe that would be taking things too far?

Well, the argument is that Jackson did far more than "do something naughty".  Repeated sexual molestation of children is pretty bad.

There certainly is a line I would suggest.  John Wayne Gacy painted a whole lot of picture both before and after his arrest - and such pictures now sell for thousands of dollars.  BUt I would never, ever buy one of them.  Similarly Hitler was famously an artist, and his paintings similarly sell quite well.

But on which side of the line is Billie Jean?

But none of those people can profit or benefit from their art though.

As I lay dying is a pretty good metal band.  Christian metal band, actually, but still very good.

They are all in some kind of Christian sect that frowns on divorce.

The singer of that band tried to hire a killer to terminate his wife, instead of divorcing her.

Once in jail, he said the "Christian" act of the band was just that, an act.  He was an atheist.
A filthy godless murderous atheist with an insane talent for music.  That went so well with his sect that they visited him in jail, got him to reaffirm his faith, managed to help him through parole and now he is a born-born again Christian in a Christian metal band touring with them to promote their new album.

It's a very good album from a very good band, even better than the last one.  Or so I'm told.  I refuse to listen to any stream of it.

I would have listened to the band, had they followed their original plan of finding a new singer and leaving that piece of shit to rot alone.   Now I refuse to even hear their new music.

The ex-wife is now excluded from the community, she sought divorce.  He is a member of that community since he has found light.

[Valmy]

I have seen people hammering Mahatma Gandhi for his long list of unforgivable sins. I mean if Gandhi is too evil for this world what chance do the rest of us have?

[viper37]

But there are plenty of older, celebrated literary works by people that, when we really look at it from a modern sense, were very nasty people who were direct/indirect actors in the deaths of many. 

The problem is, the alleged acts where criminal and non socially acceptable acts back when they were committed in the case of Michael Jackson.

I'm pretty sure Genghis Khan soldiers committed a lot of atrocities, raping/killing children or their corpses among them, but it wasn't a punishable offense back then, when you did that to your ennemies.

Which literary works do you have in mind?

Mongol music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4xZUr0BEfE



Like I said, what they did was socially acceptable at the time, so I don't frown on mongol music.

[Barrister]

I have seen people hammering Mahatma Gandhi for his long list of unforgivable sins. I mean if Gandhi is too evil for this world what chance do the rest of us have?

I similarly despair when Winston Churchill is pilloried as some kind of monster.  He was a complicated dude not without his faults, but surely helping to save democracy and defeating fascism counts for something?