The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[The Larch]

Vote share for Spanish parties in the past election according to rent (in centiles)


So the far right (light green bar) does pretty well among the working class, but gets its best results among the top 10-1%. In Barcelona they got their best results in both the poorest and richest districts. Interesting phenomenon.

That grey line looked interesting, I almost asked what kind of party "otros" is. 

Most of the parties in the "others" category are regional parties, with a predominance of basque/catalan nationalists. Those do traditionally get a larger share of the vote among upper middle class.

And are richer regions as well.

[Sheilbh]

Just heard a chat about the Spanish election in comparison with ours.

One comparison was the likelihood of voters responding to politicians basically going for a clarifying election, only to get the voters to actually deepen the deadlock

Edit: They noted the differences with Scotland/Catalonia, but also that the Lib Dems could, in theory, be the centrist kingmakers - but they've already said they won't work with the Tories over Brexit or with Labour over Corbyn.

[celedhring]

Some documents that were impounded during an anti-corruption raid show that the Catalan government sent feelers to Moscow offering to recognize the annexation of Crimea if Russia recognized the Catalan Republic. I'm not sure that was a persuassive bargain... 

Looks like the socdems will open talks this week with the Catalan Left to get their support. ERC wants "negotations for a political solution to the catalan conflict" although they have left out their usual independence dog whistles from their formal petition, so there's potentially flexibility there.

Both parties will be crushed by their right wing opposition if they enter any kind of deal/talks. And I'm personally still unsure about the possiblity of having good faith talks with separatists. Any extra power devolved to the Generalitat will be used in a sectarian way, like they have been doing the past 20 years.

[celedhring]

So, we're getting another Catalan election! The 5th in 10 years, after years of legislative paralysis because of the independence push.

President Torra is about to be disqualified from office for refusing to remove political messaging from the facades of Catalan government buildings during a political campaign (this is banned by our election law), so he'll pull off a "you're not firing me, I quit!" move before the courts hand down the ruling. He wanted his coalition partners to support him and not recognize the ruling in order to allow him to stay on, which is simply impossible to do on a practical level (anything he signed as president would be void de iure unless he really wants to put the entire Catalan administration outside the law, which they didn't dare to do when they passed the UDI), but good political theater.

His coalition partners have just signed a deal with the Spanish Socialists to start a round of talks (which I can tell you beforehand that will lead nowhere) in exchange of parlamentiary support in Madrid, so he wants to paint them as dirty collaborationists.

[Tamas]

I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.

[The Larch]

I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.

So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?

[celedhring]

The two largest independence parties (ERC and JxC, which are essentially SocDems and Conservatives) hate each others' guts to a hilarious degree (although it's less funny when you're governed by them). They are constantly undermining each other, trying to show each other up as a traitor to the cause, and so on. The last 2 years since direct rule was terminated have been a gigantic show of political theater where nothing has been done. We are still using the 2017 budget, which is calamitously outdated and that's putting a lot of pressure on public services. They say they want to pass a budget before calling the election, but we'll see.

ERC was the more radical when the referendum happened, but since then Puigdemont purged the old guard (which was moderate) from the conservative nationalists, and ERC has timidly turned to realism (hence the deal with the Socialists).

The whole referendum crisis can easily be read as a game of political chicken between both parties until the locomotive ultimately steamrolled over them.

[Tamas]

I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.

So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?

It does, I support their independence.

[celedhring]

And here I hoped you would be for a Dual Monarchy solution 

[The Larch]

I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.

So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?

It does, I support their independence.

Any particular reason why?

[Tamas]

I must admit, my initially strong sympathy for the cause of Catalan independence has all but withered away seeing this repeated showcase of incompetence. Doesn't seem like anything functional would arise anytime soon from an independent Catalonia.

So you'd be ok with them if they were more competent? The underlying basis of the issue doesn't enter the equation at all?

It does, I support their independence.

Any particular reason why?

I readily admit I have never bothered to find out the finer details, so I don't feel strongly about it. But having accepted their "they are the ones subsidising the rest of Spain" argument, it felt unfair to keep them in if they want out.

[celedhring]

Madrid pays more into the public treasury than Catalonia does.

Anyway, "I don't want to share my wealth with the paupers" has never sounded too compelling to me. Which is why they have tried to rebrand the movement in the 2010s. Still the whole "we want to be able to make a better society for Catalans" still sounds like dog whistling for "We want to keep all our money".

[The Larch]

It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.

[The Brain]

I support Catalan independence. It will be nice to have those morans outside the EU.

[Tamas]

It's the same bullshit selfish argument that the Lega made back in the Lega Nord times, as well as the Flemish independentists, the "we're rich and the rest of the country smooches form us". Glad to know that you support that kind of assholeness, Tamas.

But the thing is -again, I am largely ignorant on the issue- they consider themselves a different people from Spaniards. Ignoring the lack of merits in that argument after being in the same country for half a millennia, not wanting to be paying makes more sense that way.