The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

Started by celedhring, September 06, 2017, 02:44:20 PM

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celedhring

All very calm today. No demos, no riots. Deafening silence from the separatist government. They didn't even come out last night to salute the crowds celebrating independence in front of the regional government. The Spanish flag still flies on the building.

This is weird. I hope it's not the calm before the storm.

celedhring

Catalan President giving a speech in one hour. Leaks claim that he'll reject his dismissal, possibly call for a "Constituent" election so the mess will go on. It was too good to be true.

mongers

Quote from: Richard Hakluyt on October 28, 2017, 01:43:54 AM
Quote from: mongers on October 27, 2017, 02:29:00 PM
Maybe there's more legitimacy to our Wessex nationalist cause than I guessed.  :bowler:

Raise the dragon standard at the Vale of the White Horse and seize any Danes you encounter  :bowler:

:hmm:

Food for thought, maybe a new venture.  :D
"We have it in our power to begin the world over again"

celedhring

#888
Catalan President refuses his dismissal in a recorded message from an unknown location in Girona. He's going full Bin Laden now.

Calls for "peaceful and democratic opposition" to Article 155. This hopefully means no rioting while Madrid takes over. Which is good. Possibly means separatists will call to boycott the December election, which is not good.

Honestly, the feeling I get is that they really don't know what to do right now, since his message was really vague and didn't contain a single actionable item.

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Oexmelin on October 27, 2017, 02:01:08 PM
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 27, 2017, 11:31:13 AM
So Oex would you agree the Confederacy was justified in seceding, and Lincoln was wrong to use force to defend the union?

It's an interesting topic, but I don't want it to hijack this thread with another american-centric discussion.

Obviously, as this thread reveals, people read independence movements from the sort of precedents they have appropriated - American Civil War, Quebec independence, Brexit/Scotland.

All precedents have some relevance.  Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

Oexmelin

Quote from: The Minsky Moment on October 28, 2017, 09:33:32 AM
All precedents have some relevance.  Before committing to a position, it makes some sense to consider the broader implications of that position, for precedents both past and present.

Feel free to begin a different thread if you think I haven't.  :)
Que le grand cric me croque !

Valmy

Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 03:14:34 PM

Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry.  Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.

But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.

My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.

In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Iormlund

I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even. :hmm:

dps

Quote from: Valmy on October 28, 2017, 01:05:57 PM
Quote from: Barrister on October 27, 2017, 03:14:34 PM

Perhaps you're right - that the Union was always going to free the slaves and what Lincoln said above was sophistry.  Lincoln did sign the Emancipation Proclamation a few months after writing the above words.

But his words above, and at other times, were pretty clear on the subject.

My God. That quote has a context. Don't fall for this neo-Confederate trick of taking quotes and events out of context to advance their version of events. I don't how you can be so profoundly ignorant of Lincoln and the Civil War after we have talked about it so much to the point it is a meme but if you want to discuss it further we can start another thread.

In any case this case well illustrates a rare example where a secessionist movement does have a strong mandate ( in some, not all, of the states anyway) but profoundly fails the first test so in my eyes was not legitimate.

Yes.  What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession and preserve the Union, and that the issue of slavery was not necessarily particularly relevant to those goals.  As for as his political goals, though, as opposed to his war goals, he was still an Abolitionist.

Habbaku

Quote from: dps on October 28, 2017, 02:14:53 PM
Yes.  What Lincoln was saying was that his war goals were to end the succession...

Can you provide proof that Lincoln was a secret Stuart supporter and wanted to kill Edward VII?
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.

-J. R. R. Tolkien

celedhring

Quote from: Iormlund on October 28, 2017, 02:04:48 PM
I'm sure it is for the best but I'm finding this anti-climax quite unsatisfying. Boring, even. :hmm:

It's far, far too quiet. They must be up to something surely? They declared independence and then... did nothing.

Josquius

Quite funny to see on BBC news, the reporter standing in one of Barcelona's main squares.....where it looks like any other day.
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celedhring

#897
Right now it feels like the separatists just wanted to say they are an independent country, get all drunk celebrating and then go home, without actually caring about the things independent countries are supposed to do in order to actually be independent countries. Had I known I'd have let them do the UDI back in 2014.

I guess it won't be so easy though.

Duque de Bragança

It's Daylight Saving Time night, with one hour more to sleep and/or to party so they are having fun I guess before the real business starts on Monday.  :P

celedhring

Madrid hasn't even bothered arresting anyone either. No revolution on the weekend I guess.