The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

[Valmy]

The Separatists made this move with 40%+ of the population being against them. It was unlikely it was not going to explode at some point under those circumstances.

[celedhring]

I know. It's still going to suck.

Right now, there's a lot of cracks in the separatist coalition between moderates and radicals, but there's just not a way out for the moderates, they backed themselves into a corner. So Ulster it is. Sigh.

[Berkut]

Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.

I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?

Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...

[celedhring]

Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.

I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?

Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...

Probably, but as a resident in rebellious territory, one was hoping for a whiff of sanity. The pronuncements by the EU and the flight of the largest Catalan companies in the past few weeks should have made apparent that unilateral independence is just a) not going to happen b) a really stupid idea.

[grumbler]

Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.

I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?

Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...

Nonsense.  There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.

[Berkut]

Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.

I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?

Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...

Nonsense.  There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.

What was that status?

And wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?

Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?

[celedhring]

Looks like there's a good chance that the sedition lot will sleep in the joint tonight. If that's the case, everything will explode this week.

I don't know anything about the situation, but isn't that the inevitable outcome of what is happening here?

Everyone seems desperate to avoid it, but at the end of the day, rebellion means war or capitulation. There really isn't any middle ground that keeps Spain together peacefully other than the separatists just giving in...

Nonsense.  There are a number of middle ground resolutions that could be reached, but they'd all probably have to essentially return to the status 2006-2010.

What was that status?

And wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?

Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?

That would indeed be the separatists giving in. 2006-2010 status isn't actually that different to what we have now, the only thing of note that was struck down from the 2006 statute was a partial devolution of the judiciary.

The Madrid government has offered Constitutional reform and discuss autonomy matters - which is a concession from them since they have always been against it -, so that's already on the table and refused by the separatists.

[grumbler]

What was that status?

Google "Catalon Statute of Autonomy 2006"

And wouldn't that be the separatists basically giving in?

Is a return to the 2006-2010 status the actual goal?

It would be both sides making concessions.  It isn't the actual goal of either side, which is why it is a compromise.

[celedhring]

The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country. However, the two leaders of the two largest separatist NGOs go to preventive detention.

I need bunker-building advice from Ed.

[Berkut]

The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country.

What if the country leaves them?

[celedhring]

The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country.

What if the country leaves them?

Good question 

Actually the purported transitional Constitution of the Catalan Republic incorporates immediate amnesty for all those involved in the run-up to independence.

[celedhring]

The intensity of the demos/possible rioting in the next few days will tell us how much life there's left in this. I'm afraid it's gonna be quite a bit. The orgs these two lead have mobilized hundreds of thousands in the past.

Sigh.

[Razgovory]

Almost finished with Orwell's Homage to Catalonia.  Orwell's strengths are his clear prose, honesty, and earnestness.  He's also terribly naive (something does admit to), and has terrible political instincts.  His observations are pretty good, though I question his analysis sometimes.  For instance, he notes that steady trickle of deserters come from the Nationalist lines but almost no deserters coming from the Republican lines.  He claims this is because of the superiority of the message the propaganda broadcasters on the loud speakers.  I suspect it has more to do with the fact that the part of the lines Orwell was manned by volunteers and the nationalists were using conscripts in that location at the time has more to do with it.  I also suspect that the propaganda of creating a socialist world was less effective than the messages about plentiful food.

CB and I stayed at the same hotel the Orwells did.  The descriptions of the street fighting on The Ramblas seem unbelievable today; that's tourist trap central.

http://languish.org/forums/index.php/topic,124.msg1083084.html#msg1083084

Bolded for emphasis.

It's amazing how things can change in just a few months.

[Ed Anger]

The 2 heads of the regional police investigated for sedition have been released with charges and barred from leaving the country. However, the two leaders of the two largest separatist NGOs go to preventive detention.

I need bunker-building advice from Ed.

Got a basement? 3 months food and water. Don't wait till the "Neighborhood protection" units start forming. Or "patriotic defense brigades"

Get a couple of axes and crowbars. Refill all prescriptions and keep a good first aid kit.

I'll pray for you.

[Drakken]

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/catalonia-catalan-independence-referendum-spain-constitutional-court-void-a8004941.html

Catalonia: Spain's constitutional court declares Catalan referendum law void

Spain's top court has officially ruled that Catalonia's disputed independence referendum was illegal because a regional law that backed it was against Spain's constitution.

The Catalan regional parliament passed the so-called "self-determination referendum law" in early September.

Regional leaders went on to stage the October 1 referendum on whether the region should separate from Spain.

Spain's Constitutional Court had earlier suspended the law temporarily while judges assessed the Spanish government's objection to it.

In its ruling on Tuesday, the court said the law was against national sovereignty and the "indissoluble unity of the Spanish nation".

The court said that the parliamentary session that approved the law was also illegal.

Catalan government spokesman Jordi Turull said he was not surprised, saying: "We are facing an executive power in the state that uses the judiciary branch to block the legislative."

A Madrid judge on Monday provisionally jailed Jordi Sanchez and Jordi Cuixart, the leaders of grassroots organisations (sic) Catalan National Assembly and Omnium Cultural.

The judge ruled they were orchestrators of massive demonstrations on September 20 to 21 in Barcelona that hindered a police operation against preparations for the October 1 independence referendum.

It was to be expected but, nonetheless, it's now set in stone: The Catalan Assembly was and still is in illegality with this referendum, and if they continue to base on its results they are, in effect, rebels.

Ah, and this small nugget from RT:

The reply it gave on Monday was deemed "not valid" by Madrid, threatening to suspend Catalonia's autonomy under Article 155. However, the Catalan authorities remain adamant and say they "won't give anything different" on Thursday.