The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

Started by celedhring, September 06, 2017, 02:44:20 PM

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Duque de Bragança

Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 03:54:24 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on October 05, 2017, 03:45:46 PM
They imagine themselves becoming a new Norway or Switzerland, basically.

Why do people want to become like Switzerland? It is not exactly a pleasant place.

Swiss chocolate and cheese. Plus shopping in France becomes very cheap.

viper37

Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything.
ohh, I like that one!
Be everything you can be! Vote Yes!

I'll keep it in mind, if I ever re-become sovereignist.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

viper37

Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 04:03:32 PM
Wow you have quite an eclectic group of friends.
outside the US, people tend to mix and diversify.
I do have one uber leftist friend on my FB.   :sleep:
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

celedhring

Quote from: Valmy on October 05, 2017, 04:03:32 PM
Wow you have quite an eclectic group of friends.

They are actually real, I didn't make them up for the sake of the argument  :lol:

Eddie Teach

To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?

What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?

A friend of mine is a hardcore socialist, and imagines it as a worker's paradise.

Another friend is an an-cap, and imagines it as Randesque utopia (well, dystopia).

Another is a fiscal conservative, and imagines it as an ultra-efficient, low-tax, business friendly nation.

Another is an anarchist, and sees it as a Bakunian collection of small collectivized communities.

That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything. And that's why if we ever become independent, it would be a monumental clusterfuck.

In reality of course, it would be a Euro-style mixed economy and parliamentary democracy with power alternating back and forth between center left and center right parties.  Like, you know, Spain.
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

HVC

Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 03:56:47 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?

What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?

A friend of mine is a hardcore socialist, and imagines it as a worker's paradise.

Another friend is an an-cap, and imagines it as Randesque utopia (well, dystopia).

Another is a fiscal conservative, and imagines it as an ultra-efficient, low-tax, business friendly nation.

Another is an anarchist, and sees it as a Bakunian collection of small collectivized communities.

That's the power of the Catalan Republic. Since it doesn't exist, it can be everything. And that's why if we ever become independent, it would be a monumental clusterfuck.

it's ok, after each faction can separate into their own country. then everyone will be happy.
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

celedhring

Apparently some large Catalan companies are yelling at Madrid's government ear in panic and tomorrow they'll issue a decree simplifying the process of relocating a company's HQ within Spain.

HVC

will wealth leaving change peoples mind, or will it solidify the us vs them thing since these companies are "traitors"? Is there an intrinsic reason companies settle in Catalonia? easier access to france?
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Barrister

Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?

What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?

Well there was a long history of repression of the Catalan language.  I mean that ended with Franco, but people can have long memories for such things...
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

celedhring

#445
Quote from: HVC on October 05, 2017, 04:29:08 PM
will wealth leaving change peoples mind, or will it solidify the us vs them thing since these companies are "traitors"? Is there an intrinsic reason companies settle in Catalonia? easier access to france?

The hardcore separatists are already drumming up the "we don't need them more than they need us" tune. But the moderates are quaking in their boots. The Conseller of Enterprise (the regional equivalent of a Minister), which is the most moderate member in the Catalan government, has already said they shouldn't go forward with the UDI. The radicals are firmly in the driver's seat though. Will see if there's some kind of internal revolt before Monday. Honestly, an UDI would be a total disaster.

25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least.  :lol:

Iormlund probably knows best though. Since he seems to be working for the WV/Seat plant in Catalonia now.

Duque de Bragança

Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least.  :lol:

Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.

Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...

The Larch

Quote from: Barrister on October 05, 2017, 04:34:09 PM
Quote from: Berkut on October 05, 2017, 03:40:35 PM
What is the basic beef that Catalans have anyway?

What do they imagine a world with a separate Catalan country looks like, and how is it better for them?

Well there was a long history of repression of the Catalan language.  I mean that ended with Franco, but people can have long memories for such things...

With Franco there was repression for everyone, it's not like everything was fine and dandy in other places.

Iormlund

Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 05, 2017, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least.  :lol:

Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.

Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...

I suspect one of the consequences of this mess will be to reopen the Canfranc tunnel project. It would be a pretty expensive undertaking, but it would allow Spain to have a link to France bypassing both Catalonia and the Basque Country.

Tamas

Quote from: Iormlund on October 06, 2017, 12:48:02 AM
Quote from: Duque de Bragança on October 05, 2017, 04:51:21 PM
Quote from: celedhring on October 05, 2017, 04:40:35 PM
25% of Spain's exports go through Catalonia. Besides strategic position, there's a large network of suppliers and logistics for industries like automotive and others, and also good access to capital. Until now at least.  :lol:

Since work on the Basque Y high-speed network is way behind schedule, the only train line without break of gauge goes through Catalonia, though it's mostly for passenger services I believe, since once in Spain (pun intended) the conventional network is still broad gauge, unlike the high-speed network.

Somport and Irun could get really clogged again...

I suspect one of the consequences of this mess will be to reopen the Canfranc tunnel project. It would be a pretty expensive undertaking, but it would allow Spain to have a link to France bypassing both Catalonia and the Basque Country.

That sounds a bit bleak, doesn't it?