The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

Started by celedhring, September 06, 2017, 02:44:20 PM

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Valmy

Quote from: derspiess on September 12, 2017, 04:09:22 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 12, 2017, 03:10:17 PM
For somebody who is so anti-EU you sure know very little about it :P

Back off, bird killer :angry:

Birds are dinosaurs. Do you really want your children attacked by dinosaurs?

Think of the children!
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Tonitrus

If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.

If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.

The Brain

Quote from: Tonitrus on September 12, 2017, 08:03:14 PM
If Catalonia exits, Spain could just use the U.S. strategy circa 1861 (before the shooting started)...just ignore it and not recognize it.

If some kind of nascent Catalonian authority starts a fight with the feds, react appropriately to individual cases.

If at all possible I think Spain should spare ordinary Catalonians the ordeal of having to serve (and pay taxes to) two masters.
Women want me. Men want to be with me.

Iormlund

So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

Admiral Yi

Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

Is this money handed over by the central government?  Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.

celedhring

Quote from: Admiral Yi on September 15, 2017, 10:13:02 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

In response today the government has assumed control of Catalonia's spending.

Is this money handed over by the central government?  Someone upstream said Catalonia has no taxing authority so I'm a little confused where this money comes from.

There's two things at play here.

1) The Central Government collects most taxes (income, VAT, and corporate, all the big ones) and then distributes them to the regions throughout the year, usually in batches.
2) If additionally, a region uses credit facilities from the central government (which can borrow at a much better rate) they have to get their spending approved by the central government, and as an extreme measure the central government can step in and seize control of the entire budget. That's what they are doing right now.

Valmy

With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

celedhring

#97
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

Valmy

Quote from: celedhring on September 15, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Oexmelin

Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.
Que le grand cric me croque !

Valmy

Quote from: Oexmelin on September 15, 2017, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.

We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

The Minsky Moment

Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

How could that possibly work?  Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?
The purpose of studying economics is not to acquire a set of ready-made answers to economic questions, but to learn how to avoid being deceived by economists.
--Joan Robinson

celedhring

Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
Quote from: celedhring on September 15, 2017, 10:37:08 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:29:47 AM
With that being the case I wonder exactly what the Catalan ultra-nationalists' plan is? Surely they had to have figured the central government would do that. So getting Madrid to do that must be part of their strategy somehow.

They already have enacted a law and deployed a Catalan IRS, which would enable them to collect taxes directly. But this totally falls into the "two  masters" thing Brain was talking about, and I'm pretty sure most people would keep paying taxes to Spain just to be safe.

I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

To be frank, I think they are aware this is doomed to fail - the forces are too uneven. I think the only plan here is to force Spain to the bargaining table, or make them look bad in the international press (police shutting down political rallies, seizing ballot boxes, etc...) so the rest of the EU forces them to the bargaining table so this goes away (at least that's the nationalists' calculus, I'm not that sure the EU countries are that keen on rewarding secesionists).

There's also a game of chicken component going on, where nobody has backed down in years because it would hurt them politically, and now we're here as a result.

Constitutional reform was needed in Spain before this happened, the problem is that now the well is truly poisoned.

celedhring

#103
Quote from: The Minsky Moment on September 15, 2017, 10:51:26 AM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 15, 2017, 09:37:44 AM
So yesterday the Generalitat told the central government it would stop reporting what it does with money.

How could that possibly work?  Aren't they obligated to make their records available to the public?

Further explanation: Catalonia is using Spain's credit to finance itself (many other regions do the same). Spain has a much better credit rating than Catalonia so it saves money to the state as a whole. The condition is that the central government has to approve Catalonia's spending. What Catalonia will stop doing is sending the bills to Madrid for approval.

As a counter-measure, Madrid will take over Catalonia's payment processing, which is allowed under the law when a region doesn't honor the agreement.

viper37

Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:43:37 AM
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 15, 2017, 10:41:50 AM
Quote from: Valmy on September 15, 2017, 10:39:13 AM
I figured. Though when the first thing you do in your independence revolution is deploy tax collectors you might have a hard time building a large coalition of supporters.

It worked for Americans.

We had been collecting taxes for decades because the British forgot they had American colonies for about 100 years while they fought civil wars. It was the British who deployed the extra tax collectors.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whiskey_Rebellion

Quote
The so-called "whiskey tax" was the first tax imposed on a domestic product by the newly formed federal government. It became law in 1791, and was intended to generate revenue for the war debt incurred during the Revolutionary War. The tax applied to all distilled spirits, but American whiskey was by far the country's most popular distilled beverage in the 18th century, so the excise became widely known as a "whiskey tax". Farmers of the western frontier were accustomed to distilling their surplus rye, barley, wheat, corn, or fermented grain mixtures into whiskey. These farmers resisted the tax. In these regions, whiskey often served as a medium of exchange. Many of the resisters were war veterans who believed that they were fighting for the principles of the American Revolution, in particular against taxation without local representation, while the federal government maintained that the taxes were the legal expression of Congressional taxation powers.

I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.