The shit in Spain falls mainly in the fan

Started by celedhring, September 06, 2017, 02:44:20 PM

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Iormlund

Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?

Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.

Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.

When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.

Very true. And yeah, I know there's a big separatist segment. Hell, all my gf's coworkers will vote for independence. One wonders if they realize that their employer has offices all over Spain their jobs could be relocated to if shit hits the fan (most likely Madrid or Seville).

celedhring

Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:50:08 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:39:32 PM
Quote from: Zanza on September 06, 2017, 03:38:40 PM
Arrest them for treason?

It's not a crime to call for a referendum, illegal or otherwise. To use public funds to pay for it though ...
Declaring independence might be a crime though? It would be a crime here as soon as there was any force behind it.

Calling and holding an independence vote is not a crime in itself, rather the necessary steps you have to take in order to call it (i.e. be in contempt of the Constitutional Court).

celedhring

Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:56:48 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 03:43:53 PM
Quote from: Iormlund on September 06, 2017, 03:36:42 PM
So what?

Catalonian politicians can declare independence. That doesn't make it so.

Businesses aren't suddenly going to line up to send them money (VAT, SS contributions and income tax from workers, business tax, excise taxes). Not in a week, not in a year.

When you have 40-50% of the population voting for parties willing to run roughshod through constitutional and democratic principles in order to achieve MUH FREEDOM, you can bet that unilateral independence is going to have an effect. Sure, long term or even mid term, unilateral independence is not viable, but you can bet that lots of damage can be done in the interim. And I don't mean just metaphorical damage.

Very true. And yeah, I know there's a big separatist segment. Hell, all my gf's coworkers will vote for independence. One wonders if they realize that their employer has offices all over Spain their jobs could be relocated to if shit hits the fan (most likely Madrid or Seville).

Yeah, the naivete of not facing the consequences of their vote is very brexitesque. But it will make them feel good and stick it to The Man in Madrid!

Valmy

Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Barrister

Why would the holding of a referendum be illegal?  That sounds like part of the problem right there.
Quote from: crazy canuckBB's treatment is consistent with one who defends positions taken by the conservative wing of the Conservatives.

garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Valmy

Quote from: Barrister on September 06, 2017, 05:04:34 PM
Why would the holding of a referendum be illegal?

No reason. That is why it isn't.  It has been stated over and over again that there is nothing illegal besides maybe an abuse of funds.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

celedhring

It's illegal, just not a "crime".

The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.

Valmy

Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
It's illegal, just not a crime.

The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any constituent unit.

The declaring of independence is illegal. Having the referendum isn't...isn't that right?
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

celedhring

#24
Quote from: Valmy on September 06, 2017, 06:28:02 PM
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
It's illegal, just not a crime.

The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any constituent unit.

The declaring of independence is illegal. Having the referendum isn't...isn't that right?

Let's see:

a) A private actor can hold one, and there's been plenty at a local level. Just don't expect them to be binding...
b) The regional government can't. They can only hold referenda on stuff they have devolved powers in. "Should we divide this or that county", "should we segregate this town". (to cite some examples of actual referenda). Since they don't have the power to declare independence, the referendum is henceforth not allowed. But there's no "4 years and 10 lashings for holding an independence vote" in our criminal code. If they pursue a referendum they aren't allowed to call, they will find themselves in contempt of court, prevarication, misuse of public funds... etc... That's what happened with the one they celebrated 2 years ago.
c) It's a bit unclear if the central government could hold an independence referendum. It hasn't been constitutionally tested and the central government isn't particularly interested in testing it. It's pretty clear that it could only be held in the whole of Spain, though.
d) For anything else, you have to reform the Constitution.

DGuller

Come on, Spain, you already played that part, let Syria have it this time.


Drakken

#27
Quote from: celedhring on September 06, 2017, 06:27:23 PM
The Spanish Constitution doesn't recognize the right of self-determination of any single constituent unit.

This is funny beyond belief: No Constitution recognizes a right to self-determination. Doesn't make secession any less of a reality if a majority of a population in a given constituent unit wants it.

Valmy

Well it would certainly make it more of a reality if it did.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Monoriu

I still ask the same question: if independence happens, Barcelona football club will play who in the league competition?  :P