Terror attack in London, pedestrians hit on London bridge

[Grey Fox]

I wonder at what point will Muslims in western country start to mistrust each other.

[Tamas]

My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

[crazy canuck]

My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Well it is used as a term by people who are 1) noting that they don't exist and 2) that Islam overrides any other political feelings they may have.

To your point,

https://www.theglobeandmail.com/opinion/countering-extremism-requires-political-honesty-from-theresa-may/article35204868/

My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

Or incompetence.

[Tamas]

I don't think you can be this incompetent.

[Richard Hakluyt]

My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

I'm sure that there are several thousand of these sort of people in the UK. The BBC reports that 850 travelled to support ISIS for example http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-32026985 .

[Grallon]

Honest question - do you actually personally know any Muslims on a neighbourly level?

Several.  All coworkers - so they're mere acquaintances but they're all 'normal'.  As far as I know most of them are not religious.  They might do (or try to) the Ramadan thing but other than that nothing overt.  There is one girl with a hijab very sweet.  A few years back there was a request to have a room dedicated for prayers but it was shut down after several of the Muslim staff were asked their opinion and most said the workplace wasn't the place for this.



G.

[Valmy]

My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Yeah I hate it because it seems to say that they are not as Muslim as Salafis. The diet coke of Muslims if you will. But we have the same obnoxious terminology for Christians.

[Razgovory]

My main worry is that idiots like the two attackers revealed earlier, there must be thousands of them in the UK. Why else, would have they dropped off the authorities radar? One of them was on national TV waving an ISIS flag, and he got reported for preaching to kids on the playground and then telling a mother how he would even kill his own mother if necessary, for Islam.

If you decide THAT guy doesn't worth keeping an eye on, it means there are hundreds if not thousands of equally bad islamists out there.

If there are thousands of other Muslims that harbor similar radical beliefs but don't engage in violence then they aren't equally bad.  Obnoxious west-haiting bigots are bad, but so long as they don't commit violence they are tolerable. 

[Crazy_Ivan80]

My problem with the "moderate Muslim" expression is that it suggests that for a Muslim, the main source of political identity is his/her religion.

Which I don't think is true. Or at least I hope not. As it would spell trouble for integration.

Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading. (close to half is fundamentalist in certain western countries, iirc. Meaning they won't kill you but basically hate everything western civilisation stands for.)

edit: other, more optimistic op-ed (dutch only I'm afraid) put the amount of ex-, cultural- and secular-muslims (combined of course) at significant percentages (depending on country again) but beleagered because of misguided over-accommodation of the religion by western 'progressives' and spineless politicians, as well as a lack of theological backing that validates their opinion (IS and co have a big edge there). Meaning that this section of the community is either already living in fear, or can easily be scared into silence.

in any case: don't expect much improvement as long as things like this remain common:

Assem Hefny, teacher German Culture at Al-Azhar and islamic and Arab studies at University of Marburg, Qantara.de 28/4/2017:
https://en.qantara.de/content/islam-al-azhar-and-the-terrorists-ideology-if-the-cap-fits#comment-33036

"scholarly impartiality and historical knowledge requires that we recognise that all the facts cited by those who defend Islam's tolerance are correct, as well as everything cited by Daesh. Historically it is difficult to deny either the one or the other. (...) From a cognitive point of view, it is hard to separate a text from the person who puts that text into practice, because a text cannot speak for itself or put itself into practice. It is humans who put texts into practice based on how they understand them."

"I myself carried out a survey of two groups of students in what is described as the most open-minded faculty at Al-Azhar. I asked them how, assuming that tomorrow Egypt became as powerful as America, Muslims should treat non-Muslims – should they make them convert to Islam, make them pay the jizya tax for non-Muslims, or fight them?

An overwhelming majority of them said we should promote and propagate Islam. "What if others refuse to embrace Islam?" I asked. They said that, in that case, we should impose the jizya tax on them and if they still refused, we would fight them. So what's the difference between the mentality of these students and the thinking of Daesh? Is it only a matter of degree, in that Daesh is an overt manifestation of something that is hidden deep in the make-up of the majority of Muslims? If that is the case, it is a very serious matter and burying our heads in the sand is not going to solve it."

"Muslims should be aware that they are responsible for the image of Islam and that whether Islam is associated with terrorism or not depends solely on their own behaviour, the state of their civilisation and their contribution to knowledge.

Al-Azhar must realise that while terrorism is indeed linked to cultural, material, social and political decline and to an absence of freedom and social justice, a part of it is also linked to understanding texts, the curricula for interpreting them and the way they are taught. Even if Al-Azhar is not responsible for the first part, it must take primary responsibility for the second."

[mongers]

Given what's now emerging of the murderer's backgrounds, this looks more like a IS directed attack, rather than a home-grown one by three internet radicalised locals, which is then claimed by IS.

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-40169985

I say that because the Italian-Moroccan was in Italy last year trying to get to Syria (I presume Syria given he was going to Istanbul), but stopped by Italian police, so maybe he was later redirected by IS for this attack?

The one married to an Irish girl was in Ireland until relatively recently, but no indication if they came here for work or if he was directly motivated to come to London and plan/organise something.

[Valmy]

Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading.

Based on this article: https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

I think most of answers just indicates religious conservatism, especially for a religion that is big on laws.

The scary ones strike me as the political ones, not the religious ones. The antisemitism and the clash of civilizations stuff.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

Ruud Koopman's research is pertinent to this, but it doesn't make for optimistic reading.

Based on this article: https://www.wzb.eu/en/press-release/islamic-fundamentalism-is-widely-spread

I think most of answers just indicates religious conservatism, especially for a religion that is big on laws.

The scary ones strike me as the political ones, not the religious ones. The antisemitism and the clash of civilizations stuff.

both are part of the same spectrum. The religious enable the political. And don't forget that islam is a political system as much as it is a religion/ideology. The religious fundis might not engage in jihad themselves, but they'll likely approve very much if others egage in it.

but as I said in the edit of the post you quoted: there seems to be a very large section of moderates and ex about. It's them that need support, not the religious. And supporting them is not done by allowing sharia(-courts), ignoring the real social, religious and political pressure behind for example the head- and woman-coverings or bending over backwards to accommodate islam. Cause then only the most fundamentalist will win.

[Josquius]

Wow. One is Italian.
Thats bad. First time a non UK  EU citizen has done this.
The right are really going to have a field day with that.

[Duque de Bragança]

Will they ignore the fact the "Italian" is called Youssef Yaghba? Dual citizenship.

[Jacob]

there seems to be a very large section of moderates and ex about. It's them that need support, not the religious. And supporting them is not done by allowing sharia(-courts), ignoring the real social, religious and political pressure behind for example the head- and woman-coverings or bending over backwards to accommodate islam. Cause then only the most fundamentalist will win.

So let's say you and I agree on this goal, for arguments sake.

It is my belief - based on observation and reading, but not necessarily "hard science" - that a relatively liberal approach actually works best to that end.

I agree that there's one end of the spectrum where various institutions and hard cultural imperatives broadly force populations to conform to and adopt restrictive regressive values. Conversely, however, I think strong and direct pressure to abandon institutions and cultural values frequently backfire hard, especially if imprecisely targeted or occurring in an environment informed by general bigotry.

When it comes to things like Shariah based institutions and women covering their heads, both sides of the binary can IMO support liberalization and extremism depending on how it's done and additional context.

Generally speaking, where those things happen in a context that sets clear limits within liberal democratic parameters (leaving individual rights inviolate) they tend, in my view, to diffuse rallying points for extremists (since they can't point to easily backed up claims of disrespect and persecution). Conversely, where those things happen within a context that allow extremist gatekeepers to enforce compliance on members of their community, or where individual liberal democratic rights are being directly abrogated then it provides conditions for extremism to flourish.

Whether it's Shariah (which is a fairly broad and nuanced thing), headscarves, dietary restrictions or anything else if we want to support moderates it is in our interest to enlarge the space for people to say "I can pretty much follow my religious teachings and cultural habits AND the tenets of good liberal democratic citizenship". Because the more hard lines you draw, the more people will choose on or the other and that will include people selecting the extremist option.