Trumps first casualty - Flynn forced to resign

[FunkMonk]

*deep David McCullough-like voice*

"And the President, embattled on all sides merely 3 weeks into his administration, became a victim of his own stubbornness. "

*whiny college professor voice*

"You could say that Trump's own stubbornness, that same stubbornness that proved so vital to him in the election, became his biggest hurdle, which then eventually led to the top national security officer in the country resigning in disgrace over charges of treason."

*lonely violin plays over black and white picture of Michael Flynn, fading*

[CountDeMoney]

My sister has attempted to cope with the administration by binge-watching The West Wing, which she never watched when it was on.

Just got a text from her saying she just finished 3 episodes tonight, only to have it immediately washed away as her brain melted by turning on the news to see this craziness. 

[FunkMonk]

So much winning

[Jacob]

So much winning

I'm getting a little tired of it.

[grumbler]

So much winning

I'm getting a little tired of it.

Trump told you that would happen!

[grumbler]

This smells to me like Flynn is taking one for the team.  Pence realized that he could not let it get out that he knew that Flynn talked to the Russians about, essentially, ignoring the sanctions until the trump admin could get around to lifting them, so he had Flynn fall on his sword and say he never told Pence.

I think it unlikely that Flynn would have told a lie he knew would be easily challenged.  Pence probably didn't think about the prospect that Flynn was monitored.

[FunkMonk]

"Spread the word. Now we know how to take those sonsabitches down."

*furious telegraphing*

[DGuller]

This smells to me like Flynn is taking one for the team.  Pence realized that he could not let it get out that he knew that Flynn talked to the Russians about, essentially, ignoring the sanctions until the trump admin could get around to lifting them, so he had Flynn fall on his sword and say he never told Pence.

I think it unlikely that Flynn would have told a lie he knew would be easily challenged.  Pence probably didn't think about the prospect that Flynn was monitored.

As much as as I'm inclined to believe the worst when it comes to Russian infiltration of the White House, I'm not sure about that.  I would think that when you make someone take one for the team, you don't humiliate them publicly too much.  Also, Pence seems like the guy you have to go around if you want to have your nefarious dealings with Russia.

[grumbler]

As much as as I'm inclined to believe the worst when it comes to Russian infiltration of the White House, I'm not sure about that.  I would think that when you make someone take one for the team, you don't humiliate them publicly too much.  Also, Pence seems like the guy you have to go around if you want to have your nefarious dealings with Russia.

So you think Flynn lied to Pence, knowing his lie would be exposed?  It is certainly possible (Flynn could have wanted to get fired, or thought that either pence wouldn't care about being lied to, or trump would protect Flynn from an angry Pence), but I don't see how it passes Occam's test.  I think it likelier that Pence was the one who didn't understand that the secret could not be kept.

[CountDeMoney]

When he says "he took one for the team" it's not Future President Pence he's referring to.

[Berkut]

Why is it so obvious that Flynn's lie to Pence would be exposed?

I don't think any of these dumbasses have clue #1 about how to keep their lies straight between each other, or any idea (or care) that none of them probably believes anything the other ones of them say - that is what happens when you have a court driven by the need to lie to the liar in chief more effectively than the other liars.

I think lying to Pence is probably something Flynn would do without thinking twice about it.

However, I am also very aware that none of it makes any real sense from an outside, rational viewpoint.

So I would not be at all surprised to find out that they all knew all along exactly what was going on. Nor would I be surprised to find out they are all incompetent enough to NOT know they were being lied to, or really any combination of those factors.

[Razgovory]

Flynn is a nut case, so who knows why he does anything.  The fucker thought that Clinton was running a child pornography ring out of a DC pizzeria.

[grumbler]

Why is it so obvious that Flynn's lie to Pence would be exposed?

I don't think any of these dumbasses have clue #1 about how to keep their lies straight between each other, or any idea (or care) that none of them probably believes anything the other ones of them say - that is what happens when you have a court driven by the need to lie to the liar in chief more effectively than the other liars.

I think lying to Pence is probably something Flynn would do without thinking twice about it.

However, I am also very aware that none of it makes any real sense from an outside, rational viewpoint.

So I would not be at all surprised to find out that they all knew all along exactly what was going on. Nor would I be surprised to find out they are all incompetent enough to NOT know they were being lied to, or really any combination of those factors.

All phone calls to and from the Russian embassy (or any embassy anywhere in the world) are monitored and recorded.  Multiple people besides Flynn and the Russian ambassador knew that they discussed the sanctions. 

Flynn was from the intelligence community.  He knew that, if he denied that he had discussed the sanctions, it would leak that he was lying about that.  So, he "couldn't remember."  Pence is much less likely to have realized that the discussion about sanctions could be kept secret, so he said that he had been told that there were no such discussions.

Now, Flynn could have lied to pence, knowing that it would be exposed as a lie, or Pence could have lied about what Flynn told him, not knowing that others were in a position to expose the lie.  In either case, i would expect Flynn to be the one with the sword through his belly.  Which case is likely depends on your perceptions of the men involved, i guess.

[alfred russel]

This smells to me like Flynn is taking one for the team.  Pence realized that he could not let it get out that he knew that Flynn talked to the Russians about, essentially, ignoring the sanctions until the trump admin could get around to lifting them, so he had Flynn fall on his sword and say he never told Pence.

I think it unlikely that Flynn would have told a lie he knew would be easily challenged.  Pence probably didn't think about the prospect that Flynn was monitored.

I really don't get this at all. I do understand the rumors and speculation that Trump is compromised with the Russians. But putting that aside for a moment, negotiating the lifting of sanctions is what the administration should be doing - the point is to coerce the Russians into line with international norms and to deter future violations. If Russia is willing to make concessions to those ends, we should be talking to them about easing or removing the sanctions.

I get there is a violation of law as Flynn wasn't yet technically in the administration--but with everything going on is that really the one horrible no no?

If Flynn was going rogue, that doesn't make any sense to me...he can work out whatever private deal he wants with the Russians, but he can't lift the sanctions. Why would he have anything to lie about?

[Tamas]

1. New sanctions against Russia
2. Basically minutes after that, Flynn is on the phone with his Russian buddy.

That just SCREAMS something is not right. He seems absolutely eager not to negotiate, but to placate.