What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[The Minsky Moment]

I didn't think Eugene Debs was a Marxist.  There were certainly non-Marxist socialists, but who had but a student has the time or inclination to wade through Das Kapital?  I couldn't help but notice that most of the Bolshevik leaders came to Marx not through the factory but through the class room.  It seems that the Marxists were for workers, at least in rhetoric, but not workers themselves.  Workers certainly adopted radical politics, but especially before the Russian revolution they took other paths such as anarchism and syndicalism. 

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I'm quite sure Debs was familiar with Marx and the Commmunist Manifesto.  His program is quite consistent with the program in the Manifesto.  Slogging through the full text of Capital is not a requirement to be influenced by Marxism, anymore than being a Catholic requires reading the Summa Theologica.

You seem to be conflating Marxism broadly with either 21st century academic Marxism or with Leninism.  Marxism was already decades old when Lenin was still in short pants.  The Bolsheviks were a minority of a minority in a backwards country until the shock of 1919.  Their true Marxist bona fides were disputed then and have been disputed since.  Bernstein has as much a claim to the Marxist legacy as Lenin

[Tamas]

'Is Trump Dead?' Rumors Debunked As Trump Seen Leaving For Golf

It's a bummer, but I think the fact that he hasn't gone on an all-caps tirade on Truth Social over these rumours is telling. Something's up.

[Josquius]

If its going to happen, better sooner than later.
The theory is out there the plan is to get rid of him (not necessarily by death) once 2 years are done so vance can get 2.5 terms.

[Syt]

Seems Missouri is the next state to redraw its electoral map to boost Republican seats in DC.

[crazy canuck]

Also none of the Trammps were arrested when they urged listeners to burn that mother down.  The result was a plague of disco infernos during the 1970s

Burn baby burn became drill baby drill

[Valmy]

I just saw that on X wild rumours of Trump being dead are spreading as he hasn't been seen in public.

God isn't that merciful.

[Razgovory]

I didn't think Eugene Debs was a Marxist.  There were certainly non-Marxist socialists, but who had but a student has the time or inclination to wade through Das Kapital?  I couldn't help but notice that most of the Bolshevik leaders came to Marx not through the factory but through the class room.  It seems that the Marxists were for workers, at least in rhetoric, but not workers themselves.  Workers certainly adopted radical politics, but especially before the Russian revolution they took other paths such as anarchism and syndicalism. 

.

I'm quite sure Debs was familiar with Marx and the Commmunist Manifesto.  His program is quite consistent with the program in the Manifesto.  Slogging through the full text of Capital is not a requirement to be influenced by Marxism, anymore than being a Catholic requires reading the Summa Theologica.

You seem to be conflating Marxism broadly with either 21st century academic Marxism or with Leninism.  Marxism was already decades old when Lenin was still in short pants.  The Bolsheviks were a minority of a minority in a backwards country until the shock of 1919.  Their true Marxist bona fides were disputed then and have been disputed since.  Bernstein has as much a claim to the Marxist legacy as Lenin

Heh.  Thomism and Marxism was an analogy I was thinking about during this.  Who were the Thomists, and who did Thomism appeal too?  People who went to schools.  The students read it in the cathedral schools, the monastery schools, and the new-fangled Universities. Especially the Universities.  While most of Europe was Catholic, it was only the educated who were Thomist.  The Peasantry didn't know or care much about forms and causes.  Thomism was for the people who would lead Christians.  In the same way Marxism appealed to and was touted by the people who believe they would lead the workers.  The educated professionals.  And that is kinda how it worked out in Marxist states.  The Revolutionaries became the technocrats who led the workers.

I doubt Marx intended it this way but the primary appeal of Marxism was to students who wanted to become elites, (and that is why most people go to school, to increase your standing) but felt they couldn't because of the existing social structure.  Nobody read Das Kapital with the intention of shoveling shit after the Revolution.  "to "each according to his ability, each according to his needs," is very tempting when you think of yourself as the intellectual elite, students tend to think of themselves.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

The Americans will have to have their own Maidan. But i doubt they will

[garbon]

[The Minsky Moment]

While most of Europe was Catholic, it was only the educated who were Thomist.  The Peasantry didn't know or care much about forms and causes.  Thomism was for the people who would lead Christians.

Most of Europe was pagan and never really stopped being so until secularization.  They prayed to multiplicities of saints and angels whose portfolios were analogous to those of the pagan gods they replaced and kept many of the same feast days and celebrations.  The Church just slapped a veneer of Christianization over these folk practices and made sure the key sacraments got delivered as widely as reasonably practical.

Christianity was an elite religion and if we are being honest it still is.  E.g. I don't know exactly what faith is being practiced by these families that send out Christmas cards posing with their AR-15 pattern rifles, but it sure isn't anything coming out of the New Testament.

I doubt Marx intended it this way but the primary appeal of Marxism was to students who wanted to become elites, (and that is why most people go to school, to increase your standing) but felt they couldn't because of the existing social structure. 

Again I think you are engaging in anachronistic reasoning and reading back present conditions.  Marxism appealed to the Kronstadt sailors (until it didn't) and the Petersburg workers (until it didn't) and to the peasant masses that liked the idea of land expropriation (until it didn't).  It appealed to the German working class that strongly supported a Social Democrat party that arguably was the truest political expression of Marxism at that time.  It appealed to the British workers that eventually elected a Labor government, that while it had its share of slumming toffs, also included genuine working people, ministers with grade school education that had worked in mines, farms and factories for much of their lives.

[Razgovory]

First part of your post is nonsense.  The average person in Europe was not pagan at the time of Thomism.  Christianity and European polytheism worked differently, and one is not simply a continuation of the other.  Thomism is the to Catholicism as Marxism is to socialism.  A subset of a philosophy for one particular class of people, the educated elites.

I would say that Marxism did not appeal to the Kronstadt sailors (who were mostly anarchist), or the Petersburg workers.  They were not won over with Marxist theory but with the promise the war would end.  Even then the Bolsheviks had to cease power violently, not win over hearts and minds.

[Valmy]

First part of your post is nonsense.  The average person in Europe was not pagan at the time of Thomism.  Christianity and European polytheism worked differently, and one is not simply a continuation of the other.  Thomism is the to Catholicism as Marxism is to socialism.  A subset of a philosophy for one particular class of people, the educated elites.

I would say that Marxism did not appeal to the Kronstadt sailors (who were mostly anarchist), or the Petersburg workers.  They were not won over with Marxist theory but with the promise the war would end.  Even then the Bolsheviks had to cease power violently, not win over hearts and minds.

Well fucking good for them Raz. Fucking good for them.

[Razgovory]

First part of your post is nonsense.  The average person in Europe was not pagan at the time of Thomism.  Christianity and European polytheism worked differently, and one is not simply a continuation of the other.  Thomism is the to Catholicism as Marxism is to socialism.  A subset of a philosophy for one particular class of people, the educated elites.

I would say that Marxism did not appeal to the Kronstadt sailors (who were mostly anarchist), or the Petersburg workers.  They were not won over with Marxist theory but with the promise the war would end.  Even then the Bolsheviks had to cease power violently, not win over hearts and minds.

Well fucking good for them Raz. Fucking good for them.

Um, okay.

[Sophie Scholl]

New thread title time? "What does a COMMUNISM SEMANTICS DEBATE look like?" 

[Tamas]

Guys, Raz has reached the stage where he will never ever concede an inch on this (and I have no idea if he is right or wrong as I really really don't care). Just move on.