What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Jacob]

Huh? Am I missing the Communist marches throughout the US?

As Oex explained, Viper appears to consider any march by union members, student activists, anti-globalist, environmentalists et. al. equivalent to white supremacist and Nazi marches.

[Crazy_Ivan80]

In time, cooler heads will prevail, at least if history is anything to go by.  We've had witch hunts and street violence before; and the United States still remained a democracy.

in the past, there was at least one group committed to maintaining democracy.
Now, on one side, you've got violent thugs who do not believe in democracy.
On the other side, you've got violent thugs who do not believe in democracy.

I still don't see the difference.  It's not like the Blacks and the Jews will be spared by the commies.  It's only a matter of who's first.

The New York Times just had an article on the Antifa movement:

'Antifa' Grows as Left-Wing Faction Set to, Literally, Fight the Far Right

(I assume this is what you're referring to as the other side.)  Two take-aways that I have are:

1.)  The Antifas don't have a unified ideology, they're simply unified in their desire to (literally) fight the far right.
2.)  The members of this movement are very young

With these two factors I doubt this movement will be able to accomplish much of anything.  Due to their lack of a common outlook they have to be a reactive group rather than a pro-active group.  I don't support political violence; but I don't think this is really a cause for concern.

there's at least two more take aways:
- the diverse collection of anarchists, communists and socialists
- Its adherents express disdain for mainstream liberal politics, seeing it as inadequately muscular, and tend to fight the right though what they call "direct actions" rather than relying on government authorities.

-> not exactly defenders of democracy (socialists, we may hope, excepted) and as such they cannot be trusted to move the goalposts after (or even before) their supposed victory over nazism. They'll just label another set of ideas as fascist and keep on fighting until only their ideas, the correct ideas, remain.

Luckily it's possible to resist multiple ideologies at the same time in defence of democracy.

[viper37]

Huh? Am I missing the Communist marches throughout the US?

As Oex explained, Viper appears to consider any march by union members, student activists, anti-globalist, environmentalists et. al. equivalent to white supremacist and Nazi marches.

they're not different.  A violent protest with aims to intimidate is a violent protest with aims to intimidate.  Especially when it's the same people with a different costume.  These protesters are the same people, one day gathering to protest the G20, the other day posing as "antifa".

Wether you want to hang me because I'm white and a business owner is no different than the nazis who want to hang you because you're a leftist and a suspected jew friend.  Imho, you're just as bad and you deserve one another.

Right now, you got honest people being targetted by your little vendetta against nazis:
Amateur Sleuths Aim to Identify Charlottesville Marchers, but Sometimes Misfire

What's next?  Your friends and you are gonna show up at a suspected nazi's place and burn his house?  Then it will be "Oops, I'm sorry, we thought you were a nazi, sorry pal" ?

There is something really wrong when people like you decide to make themselves justice.

But I don't suspect the far left to be able to grasp that concept.

[viper37]

Luckily it's possible to resist multiple ideologies at the same time in defence of democracy.

shh. such things are not welcome here anymore. 

[Jacob]

Seems like some Russians at least aren't fans of Nazis. Who knew!?

One thing that occurs to me regarding the way this is presented - this set of statements proceeds from the assumption that Trump is Russia's creature. Like, they're not even debating it. It's just a given. That's quite something.

[Oexmelin]

So, so far, I think people on the forum who have come out with support of anti-fascism direct action have all circumscribed the point at which it would become unacceptable, while people who don't, have all insisted it all leads to vigilantism, and is thus akin to supporting mob rule, and are the acts of equally thuggish people.

So, to people who see it all as the same problem, what is your answer? The only clear sense I have is: "Do nothing and hope the police steps in". Is there a moment where you feel direct action would be warranted, or is it never warranted? Would you all feel comfortable going to a counter-demonstration?

[The Minsky Moment]

Presumably this one came straight out of Bannon's mouth and into Trump's ear, before engaging the potty-mouth auto twitch response?

Donald J. Trump 
@realDonaldTrump
   
Study what General Pershing of the United States did to terrorists when caught. There was no more Radical Islamic Terror for 35 years!

11:45 AM - 17 Aug 2017

Early career, Pershing commanded the Buffalo soldiers (black cavalrymen).  Wonder what he would have done with a bunch of rioters carrying KKK insignia and Nazi flags?

[Hint:  not praise them for their "very fine" deportment]

[Jacob]

there's at least two more take aways:
- the diverse collection of anarchists, communists and socialists
- Its adherents express disdain for mainstream liberal politics, seeing it as inadequately muscular, and tend to fight the right though what they call "direct actions" rather than relying on government authorities.

-> not exactly defenders of democracy (socialists, we may hope, excepted) and as such they cannot be trusted to move the goalposts after (or even before) their supposed victory over nazism. They'll just label another set of ideas as fascist and keep on fighting until only their ideas, the correct ideas, remain.

Luckily it's possible to resist multiple ideologies at the same time in defence of democracy.

In my experience - having been heavily involved with antifa in the 90s - once the obvious street presence of the Nazis et. al. dissipates the antifa presence will fade away too. Some will continue with activism for various left causes, some will focus on their education, some will get distracted by their conventional lives, some will focus on internet activism et. al. The active presence of the Nazis really is the focal point of antifa in the streets.

At least that was my experience. Past behaviour is not a guarantee of future performance. Geographical and political context may change things, etc etc.

Personally I think there are at least three preconditions that need to be filled before street fighting antifa types have even the potential to be a threat to democracy (as opposed to a serious nuisance, which they do have the potential to be right now):

1) A consistent, active recruiting pipeline.

2) One or more outward facing leaders who can shape and direct the movement and define the agenda in the public eye.

3) Consistently manifesting in pursuit of that agenda (rather than showing up in opposition to Nazi and alt-right manifestations).

... that's my POV. Not that I expect people to agree with me

[The Minsky Moment]

What an absolute cunt

Trump erected a FAKE MONUMENT ON HIS GOLF COURSE to memorialize A FAKE CIVIL WAR BATTLE feat. HIS FAMILY CREST https://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/25/us/politics/in-renovation-of-golf-club-donald-trump-also-dressed-up-history.html?_r=0

Don't be silly.  Everyone knows the Battle of the River of Blood.  It was the aftermath of that terrible battle that led to the infamous Bowling Green Massacre.

[Jacob]

Don't be silly.  Everyone knows the Battle of the River of Blood.  It was the aftermath of that terrible battle that led to the infamous Bowling Green Massacre.

Battle of the River of Blood sounds like something from a second-rate Warhammer narrative.

"The Dwarfs of Karak Azul gathered in numbers to face the army of the Bloodthirster D'naahl Ter'mp. They did battle on the banks of the River Sahd which choked by the blood and bodies of the fallen henceforth was known as THE RIVER OF BLOOD".

[Sophie Scholl]

Don't be silly.  Everyone knows the Battle of the River of Blood.  It was the aftermath of that terrible battle that led to the infamous Bowling Green Massacre.

Battle of the River of Blood sounds like something from a second-rate Warhammer narrative.

"The Dwarfs of Karak Azul gathered in numbers to face the army of the Bloodthirster D'naahl Ter'mp. They did battle on the banks of the River Sahd which choked by the blood and bodies of the fallen henceforth was known as THE RIVER OF BLOOD".

[The Minsky Moment]

The Times article on the Civil War thing is a riot:

In a phone interview, Mr. Trump  . . . simply disputed the local historians' assertions of historical fact. "That was a prime site for river crossings," Mr. Trump said. "So, if people are crossing the river, and you happen to be in a civil war, I would say that people were shot — a lot of them." . . .

But no one died in that crossing, historians said, or in any other notable Civil War engagement on the spot.

"How would they know that?" Mr. Trump asked when told that local historians had called his plaque a fiction. "Were they there?"  Mr. Trump repeatedly said that "numerous historians" had told him that the golf club site was known as the River of Blood. But he said he did not remember their names . . .

Then he said the historians had spoken not to him but to "my people." But he refused to identify any underlings who might still possess the historians' names.

"Write your story the way you want to write it," Mr. Trump said finally, when pressed unsuccessfully for anything that could corroborate his claim. "You don't have to talk to anybody. It doesn't make any difference. But many people were shot. It makes sense."

Classic, vintage Trump bullshit.
His presidency is tragedy and farce at the same time.

[celedhring]

Just read up on the alleged Pershing legend. So, I take it that muslims are like vampires and unless you kill them with weapons dipped in pig's blood they will come back? What kind of stupidity is that?

[Oexmelin]

It's America Made Great Again kind of stupidity.

[celedhring]

Bannon sacked, according to WaPo.