What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[DGuller]

Yes it does.

The Nazis murdered a large number of Jews in the 30s and 40s. This was preceded by a long period of time where they talked about "ending Jewish influence in Germany" and elsewhere.

Presently - the current situation - there are people who proclaim themselves the inheritors of the Nazis of the 30s and 40s. They call themselves Nazis and literally and proudly display the very same symbols the Nazis operated under when they murdered millions of Jews. They also speak of "ending the Jewish influence in America".

Those two things seem fairly related to one another to me. I'm not sure what makes them seem unrelated to you? It seems pretty clear that the modern day Nazis are following the pattern and wish to enact the beliefs of the predecessors they are copying.

Fair enough.  I was responding previously to DGuller, who intimated that the historical experience of Communism (and by extension of Fascism) were irrelevant to the current situation.  If you say the historical experience is relevant, then I agree.  And on that basis I draw the moral equivalence.

I'm not really sure what point you're driving at.  What the fuck do communists have to do with anything?  Are there even any around to matter in today's US?  I'm sure you can draw moral equivalence of Nazis with Genghis Khan as well, but what relevant and coherent idea would that communicate?

[The Brain]

My impression is that Nazis may well be worse than Communists today in the West in the sense of deadly violence. This has fluctuated though, at least in Sweden and Europe, with Communist terror groups waxing and waning. In Sweden in the 20th century we had Communist terror with several deadly attacks.

Those were tragic for the victims, but from a society perspective the major harm of Communism in Sweden has come from its presence as a fairly popular ideology, routinely attracting enough votes to get into parliament and coloring general discourse. Obviously as an ideology Communism is about mass oppression and murder, and the fact that Communism is and has been fairly popular in Sweden (the Nazis in their heyday attracted a much smaller vote) is a bit depressing. And if anyone claims "they don't like oppression and murder, they just want a different society!" then that's wrong, you are what you do and not what you think you are. You cannot with any credibility claim that Communism isn't about mass oppression and murder, the mountain of evidence makes this impossible.

I don't fully get the strong emotional need of large parts of the population to always look for "the good guys" in any conflict. Lots of conflicts have no good guys. If two Mexican drug cartels go to war, why would we need to select which one is "bad" and which one is "good"? And when two toxic ideologies go to war...

A classmate's dad was murdered by the Communists. Communism is bad, 'mkay. So is Nazism. Let's fight them.

[Jacob]

I'll do it when I have time. But I do regard the far left (note I said far left and not just 'left') being as bad as the far right. It's terrible that this Nazi scumbag killed that girl-- violence on the part of the far right is certainly cause for concern, but it's not as if far left types haven't also been violent.

It is not the employing of violence that makes Nazis uniquely abhorrent (bad as violence may be), it is their toxic desire to undermine democracy and their stated political philosophy requiring the subjugation and/or extermination of whole groups of human beings.

I know that "punch a Nazi meme" made you giggle so much a while ago, but maybe it did help build the level of political violence that we're now seeing, as some here predicted.

I don't think so. I think it's Trump's wink-and-nudge* from the White House and the variety of white supremacists and fellow travellers he employs therein that has resulted in the current increase in violence.

By the way, it didn't make me giggle though I found it satisfying. Someone punching a Nazi is the moral equivalent of an American soldier killing a Nazi soldier. They are fighting the good fight.

An anti-fascist punching a Nazi is no more equivalent to the inverse than an American soldier shooting an SS volunteer during WWII is. Sure both sides may be employing the same methods - punching or shooting - but that is not what determines the righteousness of the action.

*when I speak of wink-and-nudge here's how the Nazis interpret Donald Trump - this is the Daily Stormer on Trump's initial mealymouthed "condemnation"
:


Here's a summary of how David Duke interprets Trump so far: http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/entry/david-duke-trump-charlottesville_us_5991d6bae4b08a2472764798

[Jacob]

My impression is that Nazis may well be worse than Communists today in the West in the sense of deadly violence. This has fluctuated though, at least in Sweden and Europe, with Communist terror groups waxing and waning. In Sweden in the 20th century we had Communist terror with several deadly attacks.

... and how does this relate to the political situation in the US right now?

[The Brain]

My impression is that Nazis may well be worse than Communists today in the West in the sense of deadly violence. This has fluctuated though, at least in Sweden and Europe, with Communist terror groups waxing and waning. In Sweden in the 20th century we had Communist terror with several deadly attacks.

... and how does this relate to the political situation in the US right now?

That the Nazis are worse than the Communists?

[garbon]

I am concerned about doxxing and some articles have noted about people get hate messages around the US simply because one of their family members is one of these bigots.

That said, what a person puts on social media seems to be fair game and I'm not against outing people on say Facebook or any other social media linked with their name.

[garbon]

My impression is that Nazis may well be worse than Communists today in the West in the sense of deadly violence. This has fluctuated though, at least in Sweden and Europe, with Communist terror groups waxing and waning. In Sweden in the 20th century we had Communist terror with several deadly attacks.

... and how does this relate to the political situation in the US right now?

He has difficulty recognising when stories about his country are relevant.

[Jacob]

That the Nazis are worse than the Communists?

Okay. Like I've said a few times, I don't think the Communists are particularly relevant in the American political landscape right now.

[The Brain]

That the Nazis are worse than the Communists?

Okay. Like I've said a few times, I don't think the Communists are particularly relevant in the American political landscape right now.

You may not have noticed but there was a discussion in this thread that involved Communism.

[Admiral Yi]

Well the thing is, unlike with the current crop of Nazis, I do not see the willing inheritors of the legacy of Communist mass murder on the American political scene.

So I agree with DGuller that Communist mass murders are irrelevant while Nazi ones are highly relevant in today's America.

If we're limiting our moral equivalence discussion to America, I'll probably agree.  Though that's not the point I started out making.

And I will note in passing that Communists didn't historically broadcast all the people they wanted to kill before they got to power.

[Syt]

Yeah it's pretty sucky. I'm really fond of Viking stuff f. ex. and that's one of the favourite sources of symbols for the undifferentiated white supremacist crowd.

Yup. As much as I like Norse art and runes, wearing them in public is a quick way to be branded ZOMGNAZI.

[Jacob]

If we're limiting our moral equivalence discussion to America, I'll probably agree.  Though that's not the point I started out making.

And I will note in passing that Communists didn't historically broadcast all the people they wanted to kill before they got to power.

Look at some point in the past - and maybe in the future - I would be happy to engage in a "Nazis and Communists how equally bad are they (or not)" debate.

Right now I think it's a bit of a distraction given how the far right and Nazis are flourishing and encouraged by your current president. Once (crossing fingers) they're out of the limelight and your country is back on track, we can have those debates. But like I said - I don't think Communists are relevant in the US or Canada so the debate isn't really that interesting to me at this point.

And - and this is aimed at spicy - antifa types aren't Communists anyhow, they're usually anarchists of various stripes. And whatever other failings and shortcomings can be laid at the feet of anarchists, organized mass murder isn't one of them.

[garbon]

If we're limiting our moral equivalence discussion to America, I'll probably agree.  Though that's not the point I started out making.

And I will note in passing that Communists didn't historically broadcast all the people they wanted to kill before they got to power.

Look at some point in the past - and maybe in the future - I would be happy to engage in a "Nazis and Communists how equally bad are they (or not)" debate.

Right now I think it's a bit of a distraction given how the far right and Nazis are flourishing and encouraged by your current president. Once (crossing fingers) they're out of the limelight and your country is back on track, we can have those debates. But like I said - I don't think Communists are relevant in the US or Canada so the debate isn't really that interesting to me at this point.

And - and this is aimed at spicy - antifa types aren't Communists anyhow, they're usually anarchists of various stripes. And whatever other failings and shortcomings can be laid at the feet of anarchists, organized mass murder isn't one of them.

Just Franz Ferdinand. :Weep:

[The Brain]

Yeah it's pretty sucky. I'm really fond of Viking stuff f. ex. and that's one of the favourite sources of symbols for the undifferentiated white supremacist crowd.

Yup. As much as I like Norse art and runes, wearing them in public is a quick way to be branded ZOMGNAZI.

Please avoid cultural appropriation.

[Eddie Teach]

It's cool. He's worshipping Wodan rather than Odin.