What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Berkut]

Berkut mentioned the speaking fees.

That's the wrong focus IMO.  The speaking fees do buy a form of access but there are other ways to get that.  The reality is that the fees are paid not to get influence but to be able to brag that we got X to speak at our corporate function.

The big issue for the Clintons was the fact that that Clinton Foundation took money from foreign governments and business - like the governments of Algeria, Kuwait, Oman - while HRC was serving as Secretary of State.  HRC had no official role with the Foundation at the time, but Bill and Chelsea did.  It's true that none of the Clintons received personal financial benefit from the Foundation, and in that sense there is categorical difference between the Foundation and the ethical sewer of the Trump Organization.  However, it is reasonable to believe that the success of the Foundation matters to the Clintons.  It is also reasonable to believe that the foreign governments who donated to the Foundation during HRC's tenure at State thought they were getting more than just a nice feeling of having done good.  At the very least it created a significant appearance of conflict of interest.  It's dangerous to defend that kind of conduct because it leads to the degradation of ethical standards that helps Trump and his family operate the way they do without drawing universal demands for impeachment.

I actually have NO problem with the Foundations taking money oddly enough.

I did a little research when this was brought up as an issue, and noted that the Clinton Foundation has been audited by neitral parties who audit charitable organizations, and received incredibly high marks for transparency and had a unusually low overhead costs. They seem to actually do an incredibly good job at doing what they do, and a charity should not really be turning away money, IMO, based on the imagined motives of those who donate.

The Clintons seemed to make the proper insulation between Hillary and the Foudnation while she held office.

The speaking fees I think are much more problematic. They directly enriched the Clintons, and scale does matter. If it was some amount that wasn't a fundamental change to their standard of living, then I guess, whatever. But it wasn't - it was an obscene amount of money, and I don't buy the "Oh, we just want to be able to say we had a Clinton speak!" story anymore than I buy the lobbyists claim that they don't expect any kind of political payback in return for their giant donations.

The speaking fees are something of a distraction from the basic problem though, in that even if you got rid of them entirely, the problem of how money corrupts politics would not go away. They are just a prime example of how the Clintons are not just part of the problem, they are Exhibit A in just how bad it can get. $156 million dollars worth of Exhibit A, and what makes them exceptional even among other politicians.

[Oexmelin]

Was he implying some sort of compromise could have been reached?

Haven't you been listening to anything he said? He can't be implying anything, because he doesn't *know* anything, and narcissist enough to think that thoughts he didn't have never crossed anyone else's mind. It's like pundits who desperately want him to be presidential so they can go back to the script, it's mind boggling.

[Valmy]

Was he implying some sort of compromise could have been reached?

Haven't you been listening to anything he said? He can't be implying anything, because he doesn't *know* anything, and narcissist enough to think that thoughts he didn't have never crossed anyone else's mind. It's like pundits who desperately want him to be presidential so they can go back to the script, it's mind boggling.

Honestly? No I try not to listen to him these days.

But I do know he thinks he is some kind of master negotiator and deal-maker so I thought maybe that was where he was going with that.

[Jacob]

I notice you don't actually make an argument.

I will pose the same question to you:

Do you think that corporate money corrupts politicians in general, but that the Clintons are an exception?

Or do you think that there isn't any problem with money corrupting politicians in general?

I think that corporate money corrupts politicians and the process in general. I think there's a spectrum of corruption that goes from the kind of soft influence that comes from being part of the same social circles and the necessities of fund-raising without impropriety on one end, and straight up quid-pro-quo sale of favours, abuse of power etc on the other end.

Without further evidence, I think the Clintons are unexceptionally sitting in the milder end - with basically any American politician who is not exceptionally moral or more commonly corrupt - with the matter of scale a function of their success and profile rather than any kind of higher level of corruption.

Furthermore, I think that if they were any more corrupt than the minimal level required to function in the American political system that would've come out in the decades of focused crusading against them. If there was any dirt of substance, rather than intimations, I'd expect they'd be out by now.

The entire American political system is corrupted by money, for sure. I see not special reason that the stench of that corruption should cling specifically to the Clintons and consider the fact that it does the result of a successful and sustained political smear operation.

[Berkut]

Fair enough Jake - I don't agree. I think they are well above the average in corruption, of the specific kind I am talking about, where money buys access and influence.

Their success and profile are a function of how good they have been at it. They get a obscene amount of money because they know how to play the game well, and the people paying understand exactly what they are getting.

[Valmy]

Well hopefully we will not have the Clintons to kick around anymore.

[derspiess]

Well hopefully we will not have the Clintons to kick around anymore.

[Jacob]

Fair enough Jake - I don't agree. I think they are well above the average in corruption, of the specific kind I am talking about, where money buys access and influence.

Their success and profile are a function of how good they have been at it. They get a obscene amount of money because they know how to play the game well, and the people paying understand exactly what they are getting.

It's kind of hard to benchmark, since there's so few examples to usefully compare with.

[Oexmelin]

For those who are interested, Zephyr Teachout's Corruption in America provides a good historical background.

[Berkut]

Fair enough Jake - I don't agree. I think they are well above the average in corruption, of the specific kind I am talking about, where money buys access and influence.

Their success and profile are a function of how good they have been at it. They get a obscene amount of money because they know how to play the game well, and the people paying understand exactly what they are getting.

It's kind of hard to benchmark, since there's so few examples to usefully compare with.

Inded, the number of political families who have managed to get paid over $150 million dollars directly into their personal bank accounts by corporate sponsors is very small. I think the number might be 1.

[Syt]

[Valmy]

Did he mean Andrew Johnson? Granted I was not aware he was beloved or even remembered in Tennessee today.

[Admiral Yi]

He must be talking about Jackson and the Nullification Crisis, which, on reflection, is not as totally brain dead as I thought.

[Valmy]

He must be talking about Jackson and the Nullification Crisis, which, on reflection, is not as totally brain dead as I thought.

Maybe. But where does the big heart thing come from? That why I thought maybe he meant Andrew Johnson and his soft on the South Reconstruction.

[Admiral Yi]

Maybe. But where does the big heart thing come from? That why I thought maybe he meant Andrew Johnson and his soft on the South Reconstruction.

Either it means he was very generous for not nuking South Carolina, or that it was very kind of him not to genocide the civilized tribes.

Fuck if I know man.  Dude is a retard.