What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Valmy]

People want to blame those who voted for Trump? Why?

Because they took an action that was destined to seriously harm the country, after the evidence that it would hurt the country was shown to them over and over again?

Not every election is going to have amazing candidates running. But that does not mean you nuke the nation everytime.

[Admiral Yi]

People want to blame those who voted for Trump? Why?

Before the election, we all knew there was a fraction of the American electorate who were deplorable and would go for someone telling them what they wanted to hear. The story here is not the number of votes Der Trumpenfuhrere got, it is the number of votes the Dems did NOT get that made the difference.

And that is very much attributable to Clinton being a terrible candidate.

That is very much attributable to the voters who chose terribly when given a lesser of two evils decision.

[Berkut]

And if somebody like Obama was available I think the Democrats would have eagerly ran him or her. But figures like him don't come along very often. It was kind of a fluke. He just materialized seemingly out of thin air during the 2004 election.

My hope is that without the Clintons running the DNC, someone like Obama will have a chance to "materialize out of thin air".

The idea that in an election to replace a sitting and popular Democratic President, the entire democratic party could only come up with one single viable candidate and a left wing kook is ridiculous. Maybe I am wrong about the Clintons being responsible for that, but you better hope I am not - because if they are NOT responsible, if in fact the inability of the Dems to come up with anyone other than Clinton is a function of the health of the party and its ideology rather than a tactical manuever by the Cintons to make sure they were not Obamaed again...well, the Dems are fucked if that is the case.

[DGuller]

Before the election, we all knew there was a fraction of the American electorate who were deplorable and would go for someone telling them what they wanted to hear. The story here is not the number of votes Der Trumpenfuhrere got, it is the number of votes the Dems did NOT get that made the difference.

And that is very much attributable to Clinton being a terrible candidate.

The problem with this philosophy is that you give the predictably deplorable a pass, whereas the non-deplorables who swung the result due to far more forgivable offenses get the blame.  Maybe that's the most pragmatically useful way to apportion blame, but it's not the most morally appropriate way.  When the Supreme Court passes yet another despicable decision on a 5-4 vote, Alito deserves more scorn for it than Kennedy, even if Kennedy could've conceivably voted differently whereas Alito was guaranteed to be deplorable.

[garbon]

People want to blame those who voted for Trump? Why?

Because they took an action that was destined to seriously harm the country, after the evidence that it would hurt the country was shown to them over and over again?

Not every election is going to have amazing candidates running. But that does not mean you nuke the nation everytime.

But they had no choice. Though they were already Trump supporters at the time, they had to then vote Trump because a candidate might have been referring to them when mentioning that some of Trump's supporters were deplorable.  You don't understand the power of the Clintons...so powerful they lose elections.

[Valmy]

My hope is that without the Clintons running the DNC, someone like Obama will have a chance to "materialize out of thin air".

The idea that in an election to replace a sitting and popular Democratic President, the entire democratic party could only come up with one single viable candidate and a left wing kook is ridiculous. Maybe I am wrong about the Clintons being responsible for that, but you better hope I am not - because if they are NOT responsible, if in fact the inability of the Dems to come up with anyone other than Clinton is a function of the health of the party and its ideology rather than a tactical manuever by the Cintons to make sure they were not Obamaed again...well, the Dems are fucked if that is the case.

Well we will find out in 2020 won't we?

Hey maybe the next candidate will emerge in 2018 during the midterms.

[Berkut]

People want to blame those who voted for Trump? Why?

Before the election, we all knew there was a fraction of the American electorate who were deplorable and would go for someone telling them what they wanted to hear. The story here is not the number of votes Der Trumpenfuhrere got, it is the number of votes the Dems did NOT get that made the difference.

And that is very much attributable to Clinton being a terrible candidate.

That is very much attributable to the voters who chose terribly when given a lesser of two evils decision.

I guess. But what is the point of blaming people who stayed home? I can't blame them insofar as that kind of blame is useless. It's like blaming people for having bad taste.

It is the *job* of politicians to inspire people to believe that they can and will help them. If years of indifference and pandering by the Dems has resulted in 6 million people basically saying "Yeah, Trump sucks, but its not like Clinton is going to help me either, I am taking a nap" then I guess we can bitch at them, but again, we knew that lots of people will do just that if you don't convince them not to...

I don't see the utility in blaming the electorate - that isn't a level that we can pull very well (but we should try, of course). And mostly it feels like a way to avoid facing and taking responsibility for making difficult decisions about the future of the Dem party. It feels to me like an excuse to just keep doing the same thing, and hoping the electorate just magically gets smarter.

[Berkut]

People want to blame those who voted for Trump? Why?

Because they took an action that was destined to seriously harm the country, after the evidence that it would hurt the country was shown to them over and over again?

Not every election is going to have amazing candidates running. But that does not mean you nuke the nation everytime.

That is some unfair editing of my post.

The fact that there is a percentage of the electorate stupid enough to vote for the Trumps of the world is a given. The deplorables exist, they will continue to exist, and that isn't going to change.

If "blaming" them makes you feel better, have at it. But it won't accomplish anything, and is almost certainly actively harmful.

[Berkut]

Before the election, we all knew there was a fraction of the American electorate who were deplorable and would go for someone telling them what they wanted to hear. The story here is not the number of votes Der Trumpenfuhrere got, it is the number of votes the Dems did NOT get that made the difference.

And that is very much attributable to Clinton being a terrible candidate.

The problem with this philosophy is that you give the predictably deplorable a pass, whereas the non-deplorables who swung the result due to far more forgivable offenses get the blame.  Maybe that's the most pragmatically useful way to apportion blame, but it's not the most morally appropriate way.  When the Supreme Court passes yet another despicable decision on a 5-4 vote, Alito deserves more scorn for it than Kennedy, even if Kennedy could've conceivably voted differently whereas Alito was guaranteed to be deplorable.

I don't disagree with this - but I think it is more practical to focus my attention on Kennedy, since that is a lever that pulling might actually make a difference.

IMO, it is a given that there are radical on each side, and they will vote completely predictably. They are not interesting - they are constants. Better to focus on the variables in the equation, rather than the constants.

[Admiral Yi]

I guess. But what is the point of blaming people who stayed home?

The point is democracy.  The people are sovereign.  All power ultimately resides in the voters.

[Berkut]

I guess. But what is the point of blaming people who stayed home?

The point is democracy.  The people are sovereign.  All power ultimately resides in the voters.

That is such a cute idea.

The voters can only vote amongst the options presented to them. The options presented to them are all pre-vetter by the process that creates those options, and that has very little to do with the sovereign people.

The trump shaped hole in that system has brought us to the present.

[Valmy]

If "blaming" them makes you feel better, have at it. But it won't accomplish anything, and is almost certainly actively harmful.

It is just a fact. They took harmful actions against their own nation while being perfectly informed of the nature of their decision. They are adults not children.

I don't run the DNC so I don't see how it accomplishes anything either way for me to either treat the voters as sovereign thinking adults or irresponsible babies.

[Valmy]

The trump shaped hole in that system has brought us to the present.

If it was just Trump and it was just the Presidency I would agree with you. But it isn't so I don't.

To explain a bit it was not like I was surprised Trump got elected. I was pretty fearful of it as the Republican Primary went on. Because I have seen this movie before. And it is not necessarily unique to the United States. Changes are happening so people are freaking out.

[Admiral Yi]

That is such a cute idea.

The voters can only vote amongst the options presented to them. The options presented to them are all pre-vetter by the process that creates those options, and that has very little to do with the sovereign people.

The trump shaped hole in that system has brought us to the present.

The process that creates those options is the primary system, in which the voters are sovereign.

[Berkut]

The trump shaped hole in that system has brought us to the present.

If it was just Trump and it was just the Presidency I would agree with you. But it isn't so I don't.

I think I have made it clear that this problem goes far, far beyond the Presidency. Hell, the Presidency might actually be where it manifests itself the *least* being that it is so highly visible.