What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Alcibiades]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

That's the theme of this thread, you're on the wrong side.

[Razgovory]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

The blue-collar worker is helped by system racism, though.  If an employer only wants to hire whites, then the white blue-collar workers benefit.  This is understood on some level, though focus tends to be more on Hispanics who "come over here and take our jobs".

[Zanza]

@Viper: That's silly. The USA is still the most innovative country in the world, not necessarily when adjusting for the size, but certainly in total. Most scientific output and most innovative products come from there. There may be some particular sectors where they aren't innovative, but it surely isn't a general malaise.

[dps]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

The blue-collar worker is helped by system racism, though.  If an employer only wants to hire whites, then the white blue-collar workers benefit.  This is understood on some level, though focus tends to be more on Hispanics who "come over here and take our jobs".

Not so sure about that.  That's nativism, not racism per se.  I've heard plenty of nativist comments like that from blacks as well as whites.

[OttoVonBismarck]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

The blue-collar worker is helped by system racism, though.  If an employer only wants to hire whites, then the white blue-collar workers benefit.  This is understood on some level, though focus tends to be more on Hispanics who "come over here and take our jobs".

Yeah, that's obviously true. But my core point is the fact that some blue collar whites are racist, and switched from voting Dem in 2012 to Republican in 2016, the answer probably isn't they became racist in their voting after voting for a black man in 2012. In fact I suspect many of them aren't that racist at all, not that voting Obama is proof you aren't racist (I know several Obama voters in my extended family who say terrible things about blacks.)

I don't want to fall into the trap of saying Hillary lost solely because of blue collar whites and if we had a populist candidate (economically) with a message that resonated in the rust belt they'd have won, I think it's true such a candidate would've won, but I think with an election this close you can identify 5-6 things that cost Hillary the election. The loss of the blue collar whites is the most critical to focus on I think, since I think it makes the path to unseating Trump in '20 a lot easier than a greater focus on women/minority turn out.

Maybe we'll have higher turnout among them after four years of Trump, but I really don't know, and Trump didn't do that bad with women for a Republican candidate. Maybe it all takes care of itself by nominating a candidate in '20 that isn't riddled with ethical faults and 30 years of baggage, and isn't part of the neoliberal cabal of the Bill Clinton administration.

[Savonarola]

Here (in Portland, OR) the demonstrators managed to block the interstate and the light rail vehicle lines.  Being from Detroit and all, I wouldn't consider that a riot; but I am getting the impression that this is the single most disorderly thing ever to happen in Portland.

They were breaking windows and setting fire in garbage cans last night (naughty, naughty), so who knows?  In a few days we may see a white riot in Portland.

In fact the media here is calling it a riot; even though the leaders of the protest apologized and started a gofundme campaign to pay for the damages.  Also the police shut down the interstates and rerouted traffic just in case the protesters were planning on shutting down the interstates again.

Okay, white people from the Pacific Northwest; that is to say, people from the Pacific Northwest, it's time to go home.  The Great Soy Latte Rebellion of 2016 is not going to change anything; you really don't get this whole civil unrest concept and you're ruining the concept of "Rioting" for me.

[derspiess]

[Savonarola]

Yeah, but the worst thing that happened to Hillary with minorities is she just got fewer to come out and vote. As for vote share, it's pretty damn close to 2012, and if you've been reading about them--exit polls are often wildly inaccurate, I try not to rely on them too much for my analysis, and usually lean more towards looking at counties/population centers and raw vote totals. We can't fine-tune them demographically, but we kinda know that Wayne County, MI where Detroit is has a whole lot of black folk, and some county in SW Michigan doesn't.

Kalamazoo county is the one in SW Michigan that went Hil; it's both a university town (Western Michigan University) as well as a large facility for Pfizer (formerly Upjohn's headquarters.)  You're right it is about 82% white.

I looked at the change map for Michigan; and you are quite right on your other point as well.  While there were some rural white counties that had gone for Obama in 2012 that switched; the majority were mostly industrial areas with majority white populations.  Most significant of that was Macomb county which is large (about 850,000), very white (again about 82%) and very blue collar.

[Razgovory]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

The blue-collar worker is helped by system racism, though.  If an employer only wants to hire whites, then the white blue-collar workers benefit.  This is understood on some level, though focus tends to be more on Hispanics who "come over here and take our jobs".

Not so sure about that.  That's nativism, not racism per se.  I've heard plenty of nativist comments like that from blacks as well as whites.

Explain the difference to me.

[jimmy olsen]

Chris Christie FIRED.  Mike Pence taking over transition team.

Good. I really hope that the shadow presidency thing is true. Domestically the next four years is going to be a disaster either way, especially for minorities, but at least Pence has an orthodox foreign policy.

[derspiess]

Shadow presidency will not go over well here. Concept of a shadow cabinet may work in the UK but I think most Americans will either ignore it or think it pathetic.

[dps]

This gets into the broader issue of systemic racism vs the more virulent, obvious kind. All these Trumpers who are bigoted are part of systemic racism, and it's systemic because it's so widespread, but it should be noted--it's rarely self-actualized. The real white nationalists genuinely want whites to be empowered and minorities to be servile or not in the country at all. But this liberal idea that Trump won because everyone is secretly virulently racist, and wanted a racist President, I think is just wrong. Yes, a lot of Trump voters are "systemically racist", but that really more manifests in them not liking riots against police treatment, not liking things like "safe spaces" and etc. That stuff annoys these voters, but I don't think it explains why they voted for Obama in 2012 and Trump in 2016.

Talking about people being "systematically racist" is about like someone complaining about "white privilege";  it's not that those things don't exist, it's that white blue-collar workers whose families have been getting kicked in the teeth economically don't see it as having anything to do with them personally, and they're largely correct.  They can honestly say, "Hey, I don't have anything against blacks.  I'm not trying to keep blacks down, I just want honest, hard-working people like me to be able to get ahead, whatever race they are."  A guy like that hears people talking about "white privilege" and he takes it as a personal insult, as him being called a racist personally.  That doesn't help anything;  it just pisses him off and helps blind him to real problems of racism and to real racists.

The blue-collar worker is helped by system racism, though.  If an employer only wants to hire whites, then the white blue-collar workers benefit.  This is understood on some level, though focus tends to be more on Hispanics who "come over here and take our jobs".

Not so sure about that.  That's nativism, not racism per se.  I've heard plenty of nativist comments like that from blacks as well as whites.

Explain the difference to me.

Racism:  you don't like people whose skin is a different color.

Nativism:  you don't like people from other countries (at least not when they move to your country, you might be OK with them as tourists).

[mongers]

Anyone else watching the CBS 60 minute interview with Trump?

[DontSayBanana]

Christie abandoned Him when the night was darkest, and He had not forgotten.

Christie was turning into a liability- a week ago, two of the three accused of running Bridgegate got convicted, with the third rolling on everybody, including Christie.  All of a sudden, that judge allowing a criminal complaint against Christie wasn't as much of a joke to Republicans as it had been.

[derspiess]