What does a TRUMP presidency look like?

[Admiral Yi]

Due process is kinda important.

Masked dudes with no warrants grabbing folks off the street ain't it.

You sure a warrant is needed for deportation?

[Admiral Yi]

I think that applies very well to the Palestinian visa holders who got deported for speech, not at all for this one, unless there's more to this story I'm not aware of.

There's the Newark mayor who was detained by ICE and the Wisconsin judge who was detained and now suspended from her job. There seems to be steady stream of stories of citizens being wrongfully detained, combined with Trumps stated desire to deport million+ people, the stated desire to avoid any kind of due process, and Stephen Miller's on the record statements about suspending Habeas Corpus.

Seems to me it's trending in the wrong direction.

I haven't read up on on Newark mayor.  The Wisconsin judge is guilty as sin.

[Zoupa]

I think that applies very well to the Palestinian visa holders who got deported for speech, not at all for this one, unless there's more to this story I'm not aware of.

There's the Newark mayor who was detained by ICE and the Wisconsin judge who was detained and now suspended from her job. There seems to be steady stream of stories of citizens being wrongfully detained, combined with Trumps stated desire to deport million+ people, the stated desire to avoid any kind of due process, and Stephen Miller's on the record statements about suspending Habeas Corpus.

Seems to me it's trending in the wrong direction.

I haven't read up on on Newark mayor.  The Wisconsin judge is guilty as sin.

The judge (Hannah Dugan) is not "guilty as sin". Minsky had a whole, detailed post on what happened.

[Zoupa]

Due process is kinda important.

Masked dudes with no warrants grabbing folks off the street ain't it.

You sure a warrant is needed for deportation?

They already arrested and deported the wrong folks numerous times. At some point, one of these masked "agents" are going to get shot/killed busting through the wrong door.

Disregarding the morality (and legality) of it all for a moment, these methods are simply stupid and needlessly violent/confrontational.

[Zoupa]

I think that applies very well to the Palestinian visa holders who got deported for speech, not at all for this one, unless there's more to this story I'm not aware of.

There's the Newark mayor who was detained by ICE and the Wisconsin judge who was detained and now suspended from her job. There seems to be steady stream of stories of citizens being wrongfully detained, combined with Trumps stated desire to deport million+ people, the stated desire to avoid any kind of due process, and Stephen Miller's on the record statements about suspending Habeas Corpus.

Seems to me it's trending in the wrong direction.

I haven't read up on on Newark mayor.  The Wisconsin judge is guilty as sin.

Found it. Copy pasting below.

We don't have all the facts, but on the face of it she certainly seemed to be assisting his attempt to evade arrest. It does not make a lot of sense; if they have a warrant, they'll still (and did) arrest him later

The second sentence is correct - it doesn't make a lot of sense.
That's because the there is no evidence the judge attempted to assist an evasion of arrest - based on the government's own affidavit.

A typical urban state courthouse is a busy place during courtroom hours. The courthouse usually has a nice spacious lobby area.  But the upper floor courtrooms - Dugan was on the 6th floor - are usually off of relatively narrow corridors.  According to the government affidavit, ICE sent a team of six agents to camp out in the corridor in front of Judge Dugan's chambers.  Six agents for one man known to be unarmed and not dangerous.

Judge Dugan runs a misdemeanor part, so during court session, her courtroom is likely to be filled with all sorts of people coming in and out - including not only defendants and their lawyers, but witnesses, translators, victims, and family members of all of the above.  All of them come through the public entrance to the courtroom which means that day they all pass by a phalanx of armed ICE agents.  That's a serious concern because - for example - witnesses in criminal cases are sometimes not entirely law abiding citizens themselves, and could easily be scared off by a large law enforcement presence camped out in front of a courtroom.  That explains Judge Dugan's annoyance.

There are two entrances to Judge Dugan's courtroom.  Both enter from the same place - the public corridor.  Both exit out into the same place - the courtroom.  One is the general public entrance; the other is for jurors and leads into the jury room antechamber, which in turn has an egress out into the courtroom.  The reason for two entrances is that so in a jury chamber, jurors will be separate from lawyers and parties as they enter the courtroom. 

According to the government's affidavit, Judge Dugan had Flores-Ruiz exit out the jury exit. There is an obvious reason for her to do that.  She was running an active courtroom and did not want ICE to conduct an arrest right in front of the public entrance where others were coming in and out.  Sending him the jury entrance would mean at least a few yards of separation of the arrest from the public entrance.

The government's claim that she intended to assist evasion by sending out the jury entrance is absurd.  The jury entrance leads out to exactly the same corridor, where the judge knew ICE was waiting.  And indeed, the government affidavit admits the ICE agents saw him going out the door.  It then says an ICE agent got on the elevator with Flores-Ruiz.

If the judge wanted to help Flores-Ruiz evade, she wouldn't have sent out the jury room.  She would have taken him into chambers in the back, because there is usually a private entrance for the judge that does not lead to the public corridor.  She didn't do that.

The only obstruction that happened that day was by a six-man team of ICE agents wasting federal taxpayer money by putting on a show and disrupting business in a state courthouse.  Separation of powers goes two ways.  The judiciary cannot intrude on proper executive functions.  But the executive should not be conducting show piece enforcement operations in state courthouses.

[Admiral Yi]

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-judge-dugan-case-is-more-complicated-than-it-seems

Joan left out some relevant bits.  The judge the Feds go to the chief judge's chambers and escorted Ruiz out while they were in discussions there.  She never did hear Ruiz' case.

[bogh]

https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-judge-dugan-case-is-more-complicated-than-it-seems

Joan left out some relevant bits.  The judge the Feds go to the chief judge's chambers and escorted Ruiz out while they were in discussions there.  She never did hear Ruiz' case.
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https://www.lawfaremedia.org/article/the-judge-dugan-case-is-more-complicated-than-it-seems

Joan left out some relevant bits.  The judge the Feds go to the chief judge's chambers and escorted Ruiz out while they were in discussions there.  She never did hear Ruiz' case.

Is this the basis for your "guilty as sin" verdict? Because the link you provided seems closer to backing Joan's version than yours.

[Zoupa]

I read your linked article, and I would not say she's guilty as sin. I think she was pissed this was occurring right outside her courtroom and attempted to wash her hands of the whole thing.

[grumbler]

The fact that she interrupted her own judicial process and escorted Ruiz out of her courtroom without even hearing his case (much t the surprise of the prosecutor, defense attorney, and witnesses) indicates to me that she was not just trying to preserve the sanctity of her courtroom. She sent the (known) Federal officers off to the chief judge and then hustled Ruiz out of the courtroom via a normally unused route.  It's pretty clear to me that she was trying to assist Ruiz in avoiding his arrest.

[crazy canuck]

Saw Trump signed an executive order for 20 000 more ICE agents. Gee, I wonder how they'll get so many well-adjusted individuals. I'm sure the recruiting process will be thorough.

With that many they will need to use a basic colour for the uniform to save costs.  Maybe something like brown shirts?

[Admiral Yi]

Is this the basis for your "guilty as sin" verdict? Because the link you provided seems closer to backing Joan's version than yours.

My original guilty as sin verdict was based almost entirely on the fact that the judge let Ruiz exit through the jury room.  In response to Joan's theory of the case I read this article, in which I learned that Ruiz exited the court room at a time when most of the feds were in the chief judge's office, where the defendant judge had sent them, and that she decided not to conduct the legal process which Ruiz was scheduled to participate in.  So it's worse even than I had previously thought.

[Zoupa]

Is this the basis for your "guilty as sin" verdict? Because the link you provided seems closer to backing Joan's version than yours.

My original guilty as sin verdict was based almost entirely on the fact that the judge let Ruiz exit through the jury room.  In response to Joan's theory of the case I read this article, in which I learned that Ruiz exited the court room at a time when most of the feds were in the chief judge's office, where the defendant judge had sent them, and that she decided not to conduct the legal process which Ruiz was scheduled to participate in.  So it's worse even than I had previously thought.

I kind of agree overall. I think she acted without thinking too much. I'm not sure criminal charges are the right way to go though.

To be honest what appalled me in this whole saga is the law enforcement trying to make an arrest inside a courthouse, with officers in plainclothes. And it's apparently not an isolated incident. You would think that these methods won't encourage anyone to show up for their hearings, considering how ICE seems to now operate haphazardly.

[Sheilbh]

I think she could be guilty as sin and she'd be admirable and doing the right thing.

The immigration apparatus in the US is disappearing people into foreign prisons and defying domestic court orders to return them.

I said before but I think this is a time and an issue that calls for civil disobedience. I think it's absolutely right for people to not cooperate even if that's in breach of their "professional" or legal obligations, knowing full well the consequences of their actions and taking them. In part that's the point that to bastardise Marx you pluck the flowers from the chains and show the coercive power of an unjust, lawless government for what it is without cooperation/consent. I think people should absolutely be courting criminal charges and it's right that mayors etc are willing to defy arrest, others should be joining them.

I really think people disappearing into foreign jails without habeas corpus being observed is hugely significant. I think it absolutely justifies principled mass non-violent resistance. I think people should refuse to cooperate in any way (obviously aware I'm not in a role where it would come up and an ocean away so I just hope I'd have the courage of what I think should be done.)

[Admiral Yi]

I think civil disobedience is awesome.  But it really reduces the effect in my eyes when you knowingly break the law as a political gesture then whine about how unfair it is you're being arrested.

It also helps to know what you're objecting to.  Is it all deportations, or just those that don't observe due process, or something else?

[Sheilbh]

I wasn't aware the judge had made any statements far less whiny ones about its unfairness.

My view is that while the US immigration infrastructure is sending people to foreign jails without due process and not complying with court orders, it is, in its entirety arbitrary, illegitimate and lawless. I'd argue it's not about a case-by-case assessment but refusing to cooperate until ICE and the immigration infrastructure return to a position where they are complying with the law.

Individual cases are a distraction and I think it's playing into their hands to examine them on a case-by-case basis - because we know that is not what they are doing. If we do that we're treating these cases with more respect and attention than they are.