This is why we need to stop being such douchebags about gun violence research

[OttoVonBismarck]

It's that hard to find an illegal gun in the UK, I think this means our gun control laws are working?

Of course they do--gun control unambiguously works when it's fairly comprehensive in nature. I wonder why he didn't just buy a shotgun though, my understanding is that while there are hoops to jump through they are generally available to people who really want one in Britain. I guess unless he had some sort of disqualifying criminal/mental record.

Not super concealable, but pretty damn easy to saw one down into a length where you could conceal it for this guy's purposes--and it'd function much more reliably than a homemade gun (albeit admittedly his homemade gun appears to have worked just fine, unfortunately.)

[OttoVonBismarck]

Yeah, cursory research suggests that while it'll take a few months, shotguns aren't too hard to get. Unlike weapons classified as "firearms" in Britain (a shotgun isn't considered one), it appears you just need to pay the 80 pound application fee, have a proper gun cabinet a police officer can inspect, get one person to countersign for you that you've known at least two years, and not have a disqualifying criminal or health record. Unlike with firearms where you have to survive scrutiny demonstrating a legitimate need, with a shotgun you can just say for pest control in rural areas or for "shooting sports" if you don't live in a rural area where that argument would pass muster.

[MadImmortalMan]

The well-regulated militia is described in the Federalist papers.  It is officered by state appointment, has uniforms and equipment, and is trained to a standard not much inferior to that of a regular soldier.  It is quite clearly the National Guard that the Second Amendment refers to when it talks about the well-regulated militia.  The reference to 'the people" here is reminiscent of the reference in "We, the People" in the preamble to the constitution.

The "militia of the whole" was dismissed by the Federalists as a guarantor of the peoples' liberties because it had proven in the Revolutionary War to be incapable of standing up to a regular army.  That is precisely why they wanted to ensure the establishment and maintenance of a well-regulated militia like today's National Guard.

I think Siege is referring to the definition of the militia in the US Code. But it doesn't say "everyone not in the government" It's something like all males between 18 and 40 and all women who are in the Guard. Presumably even members of the government. 

[mongers]

It's that hard to find an illegal gun in the UK, I think this means our gun control laws are working?

Of course they do--gun control unambiguously works when it's fairly comprehensive in nature. I wonder why he didn't just buy a shotgun though, my understanding is that while there are hoops to jump through they are generally available to people who really want one in Britain. I guess unless he had some sort of disqualifying criminal/mental record.

Not super concealable, but pretty damn easy to saw one down into a length where you could conceal it for this guy's purposes--and it'd function much more reliably than a homemade gun (albeit admittedly his homemade gun appears to have worked just fine, unfortunately.)

Yes,  the mental health would probably an insurmountable hurdle, as your following post goes on to mention. I think for someone like that, well know in his community it would have been difficult to get his doctor, MP, JP or police officer to countersign a shotgun application.

[11B4V]

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/national-international/NH-Dealer-Offers-Free-AR-15-With-Car-383463951.html?_osource=SocialFlowFB_CHBrand

[Martinus]

http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com

[Valmy]

http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com

This looks like something douchey so I am not going to click on it.

[mongers]

http://www.thoughtsandprayersthegame.com

This looks like something douchey so I am not going to click on it.

To be fair to Marty, that's the reason I don't click on 90% of the links Languishites post here.

[Berkut]

So, according to the timeline given, Mateen opens fire at 1:58 a.m.

Within a few minutes, over 100 police converge on the scene, and at 2:08 a.m. officers (including two SWAT officers who had responded, but obviously not a complete team) go into the club and engage Mateen, while other officers help people get away.

Mateen retreats into a bathroom with some number of hostages. By 2:35 a.m. he is calling people to brag.

That means, if I am reading this correctly, that Mateen shot about 100 people in the space of about ten minutes, and with a 50% fatality rate.

There is no way, IMO, he could have reasonably accomplished that with just a handgun, and certainly not with one that was limited to a ten round magazine. That kind of carnage takes an ability to put out a LOT of firepower very quickly. An AR-15 with a 30 round clip is damn near ideal for that - short of some kind of light machine gun.

This seems to me to be exactly the kind of situation that bans on assault rifles and high capacity magazines are intended to mitigate.

[11B4V]

So, according to the timeline given, Mateen opens fire at 1:58 a.m.

Within a few minutes, over 100 police converge on the scene, and at 2:08 a.m. officers (including two SWAT officers who had responded, but obviously not a complete team) go into the club and engage Mateen, while other officers help people get away.

Mateen retreats into a bathroom with some number of hostages. By 2:35 a.m. he is calling people to brag.

That means, if I am reading this correctly, that Mateen shot about 100 people in the space of about ten minutes.

There is no way, IMO, he could have reasonably accomplished that with just a handgun, and certainly not with one that was limited to a ten round magazine. That kind of carnage takes an ability to put out a LOT of firepower very quickly. An AR-15 with a 30 round clip is damn near ideal for that - short of some kind of light machine gun.


This seems to me to be exactly the kind of situation that bans on assault rifles and high capacity magazines are intended to mitigate.

Yip

[Berkut]

Are you agreeing that this is the kind of situation that such bans are intended to mitigate, or agreeing that such bans would actually mitigate them?

[The Minsky Moment]

Honest question from an amateur:  what sorts of uses are there for an AR-15, other than collectability?  Is it useful for sporting or hunting?  Other things?

[Berkut]

Honest question from an amateur:  what sorts of uses are there for an AR-15, other than collectability?  Is it useful for sporting or hunting?  Other things?

It is a semi-auto rifle - you can use it for anything you can use a semi-auto rifle for - hunting, target shooting, etc.

My brother in law has one, and we went shooting with it. It is super easy to shoot, and a lot of fun.

I could not really distinguish it in any practical sense from the M-16 I used in the military, other than it not having a lever with "Three round burst" as an option.

[11B4V]

Are you agreeing that this is the kind of situation that such bans are intended to mitigate, or agreeing that such bans would actually mitigate them?

I'm agreeing that high capacity mags (pistol/assault rifles) and assault rifles themselves, don't belong in the hands of civilians. Such a ban is not an infringement on the 2nd.

If there were such a ban, it would possibly mitigate the high causality rate depending on the initial response time of Law Enforcement. However a shooter carrying 3-4 semi auto pistols w/ 10 round mags, still has a good chance to inflict a lot of damage depending on their skill and ability. 

[Berkut]

Are you agreeing that this is the kind of situation that such bans are intended to mitigate, or agreeing that such bans would actually mitigate them?

I'm agreeing that high capacity mags (pistol/assault rifles) and assault rifles themselves, don't belong in the hands of civilians. Such a ban is not an infringement on the 2nd.

If there were such a ban, it would possibly mitigate the high causality rate depending on the initial response time of Law Enforcement. However a shooter carrying 3-4 semi auto pistols w/ 10 round mags, still has a good chance to inflict a lot of damage depending on their skill and ability. 

True enough. We found something to agree on today.

I think my problem with things like an AR-15 is touched upon in your response. It lowers the bar of skill needed to really inflict serious damage. You don't have to be particularly skilled to wreak some serious carnage - it is a really, really great weapon in that sense. Super easy to use well.

Hitting a moving target with a handgun, even at short range, is actually pretty hard for an amateur. It isn't even that easy once you get training in it.