Second Viking site in North America discovered?

Started by Caliga, March 31, 2016, 07:54:27 PM

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derspiess

#15
April 01, 2016, 10:39:05 AM Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:02:04 AM by derspiess
Quote from: viper37 on April 01, 2016, 10:03:27 AM
Nah. I like the fact it gets people discussing history. Also reveals that Columbus was a weirdo and psycho.


Everyone was a weirdo back then by modern standards.  I don't understand why Columbus gets singled out. 

Anyway it's considered the ethnic holiday for Eyetalian-Americans.  Let it stay.
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Valmy

#16
April 01, 2016, 10:40:26 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2016, 10:39:05 AM
I don't understand why Columbus gets singled out. 

No you do not understand. This is not my opinion looking back. He was weird IN HIS TIME. This is not a modern opinion. There is a reason why the Portuguese thought he was a nutcase and the Spanish eventually had him arrested. He was just a weird dude who had a hard time getting along with everybody.

QuoteAnyway it's considered the ethnic holiday for Eyetalian-Americans.  Let it stay.

I have no problem with it. There is no reason why we cannot have a Holiday but also talk about who Columbus was and the meaning of his achievements.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

viper37

#17
April 01, 2016, 10:45:13 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 01, 2016, 10:35:02 AM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christopher_Columbus#Accusations_of_tyranny_during_governorship

I should have looked to Wikipedia :)
Well, thanks, I was unaware of these accusations.  I mean, I knew he was brutal, but no more than the average Spanish of the time.
I don't do meditation.  I drink alcohol to relax, like normal people.

If Microsoft Excel decided to stop working overnight, the world would practically end.

Valmy

#18
April 01, 2016, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 01, 2016, 10:35:02 AM
Well, he *was* dragged back to Spain in chains for the nasty shit he'd pulled, together with his allegedly-psycho brother, in the colony he was running, and some of it was pretty bad, even by Spanish standards - like approving of his brother sexually humiliating and then mutilating some poor woman for insulting his lowly birth.  :hmm:

It took awhile for the Spanish government to reconcile itself with the brutality of its colonies. For awhile it kept trying to treat the Native Americans as if they were just another Old World nation and it just didn't work. In the end they just needed the money. I find the process pretty fascinating actually. They tried, they really tried to do the right things at times but the dynamics at play in the New World were irresistible for whatever reason.

I found it fascinating they put Coronado on trial for murder. It turned out to be a farce but hey, they really tried to make it illegal to kill natives. But the Native Americans had no lobbyists or important faction backing them up. Eerily like the dynamics of those who tried to defend the rights of the Native Americans in the 19th century USA.

The evolution of European colonialism. The Spanish set all the precedents. Not the legacy the Most Catholic Monarchy would like to have left I am sure.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Malthus

#19
April 01, 2016, 10:55:22 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 10:51:43 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 01, 2016, 10:35:02 AM
Well, he *was* dragged back to Spain in chains for the nasty shit he'd pulled, together with his allegedly-psycho brother, in the colony he was running, and some of it was pretty bad, even by Spanish standards - like approving of his brother sexually humiliating and then mutilating some poor woman for insulting his lowly birth.  :hmm:

It took awhile for the Spanish government to reconcile itself with the brutality of its colonies. For awhile it kept trying to treat the Native Americans as if they were just another Old World nation and it just didn't work. In the end they just needed the money. I find the process pretty fascinating actually. They tried, they really tried to do the right things at times but the dynamics at play in the New World were irresistible for whatever reason.

I found it fascinating they put Coronado on trial for murder. It turned out to be a farce but hey, they really tried to make it illegal to kill natives. But the Native Americans had no lobbyists or important faction backing them up. Eerily like the dynamics of those who tried to defend the rights of the Native Americans in the 19th century USA.

The evolution of European colonialism. The Spanish set all the precedents. Not the legacy the Most Catholic Monarchy would like to have left I am sure.

What really got Columbus and bro. in trouble though was not brutality towards natives alone, but rather brutality towards Spanish colonists. No doubt particularly galling, as they weren't even Spanish!  :D
The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding oneself in the ranks of the insane—Marcus Aurelius

Valmy

#20
April 01, 2016, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 01, 2016, 10:55:22 AM
What really got Columbus and bro. in trouble though was not brutality towards natives alone, but rather brutality towards Spanish colonists. No doubt particularly galling, as they weren't even Spanish!  :D

As I said, Columbus got along well with nobody :P

But the natives of Hispaniola didn't have somebody reporting the abuses to the Crown on their behalf.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Phillip V

#21
April 01, 2016, 11:04:47 AM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 10:56:47 AM
Quote from: Malthus on April 01, 2016, 10:55:22 AM
What really got Columbus and bro. in trouble though was not brutality towards natives alone, but rather brutality towards Spanish colonists. No doubt particularly galling, as they weren't even Spanish!  :D

As I said, Columbus got along well with nobody :P

But the natives of Hispaniola didn't have somebody reporting the abuses to the Crown on their behalf.

IIRC, the natives' main lobbyists were the Jesuits.

derspiess

#22
April 01, 2016, 11:05:11 AM
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Barrister

#23
April 01, 2016, 11:22:31 AM Last Edit: April 01, 2016, 11:25:23 AM by Barrister
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2016, 11:05:11 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 01, 2016, 11:04:47 AM
Jesuits.

:bleeding:

What's wrong with the Society of Jesus? :yeahright:

That being said since the Jesuits weren't founded until 1540 they were certainly not involved when Columbus was running around.
Posts here are my own private opinions.  I do not speak for my employer.

derspiess

#24
April 01, 2016, 11:49:05 AM
"If you can play a guitar and harmonica at the same time, like Bob Dylan or Neil Young, you're a genius. But make that extra bit of effort and strap some cymbals to your knees, suddenly people want to get the hell away from you."  --Rich Hall

Phillip V

#25
April 01, 2016, 01:37:33 PM
Quote from: Barrister on April 01, 2016, 11:22:31 AM
Quote from: derspiess on April 01, 2016, 11:05:11 AM
Quote from: Phillip V on April 01, 2016, 11:04:47 AM
Jesuits.

:bleeding:

What's wrong with the Society of Jesus? :yeahright:

That being said since the Jesuits weren't founded until 1540 they were certainly not involved when Columbus was running around.

Ah, it was the Dominican friars:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laws_of_Burgos

Habbaku

#26
April 01, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
The medievals were only too right in taking nolo episcopari as the best reason a man could give to others for making him a bishop. Give me a king whose chief interest in life is stamps, railways, or race-horses; and who has the power to sack his Vizier (or whatever you care to call him) if he does not like the cut of his trousers.

Government is an abstract noun meaning the art and process of governing and it should be an offence to write it with a capital G or so as to refer to people.
-J. R. R. Tolkien

Valmy

#27
April 01, 2016, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 01, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Elaborate.

Highly educated and skilled at rhetoric.
Quote"This is a Russian warship. I propose you lay down arms and surrender to avoid bloodshed & unnecessary victims. Otherwise, you'll be bombed."

Zmiinyi defenders: "Russian warship, go fuck yourself."

Jacob

#28
April 01, 2016, 02:07:26 PM
Quote from: Valmy on April 01, 2016, 02:03:28 PM
Quote from: Habbaku on April 01, 2016, 02:02:08 PM
Elaborate.

Highly educated and skilled at rhetoric.

Sometimes in favour of liberal principles and the interests of the poor.

Razgovory

#29
April 01, 2016, 02:13:20 PM
Also many scientists in their ranks.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017
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