St. Paul was the only human who lived in the first and second centuries AD

[crazy canuck]

From the allegories of Jesus to prophesies in the Old Testament, the bible is consistent in that when god/jesus delivers a message, it may not be literal or immediately understandable.

Are you trying to say the Bible is consistently inconsistent or just badly written?

[alfred russel]

From the allegories of Jesus to prophesies in the Old Testament, the bible is consistent in that when god/jesus delivers a message, it may not be literal or immediately understandable.

Are you trying to say the Bible is consistently inconsistent or just badly written?

Neither--the opposite in fact (at least for the creation stories, which is what I'm discussing). Berkut is complaining that it is a cop out to say the creation stories are figurative, I'm presuming because that means it isn't literally true and obscures the meaning of the passage. I'm addressing the first of his hypothetical points by saying that the allegories of jesus aren't literally true either, and the second by by saying many prophesies in the bible were not understandable at the time they were transmitted.

As such, I don't think saying the creation stories are figurative is a cop out from their literal falseness.

However, to your question, I would answer that yes, I think the bible is poorly written, and no, I do not think it is internally consistent.

[crazy canuck]

the second by by saying many prophesies in the bible were not understandable at the time they were transmitted.

I will take you up on this point and leave the first for Berkut.

Not sure why you think the prophesies in the New and Old Testament dont make sense.  There is a lot of textual scholarship out there that explains them very well.  For example Revelation is a diatribe against Roman Rule, Many of the prophesies in the Old Testament are actually written to legitimize the rule of certain Kings etc.  Indeed the only time they stop making sense is when you pluck them out of their historical setting and try to make them mean something they dont -  the second coming of a Christian man/god.

[alfred russel]

the second by by saying many prophesies in the bible were not understandable at the time they were transmitted.

I will take you up on this point and leave the first for Berkut.

Not sure why you think the prophesies in the New and Old Testament dont make sense.  There is a lot of textual scholarship out there that explains them very well.  For example Revelation is a diatribe against Roman Rule, Many of the prophesies in the Old Testament are actually written to legitimize the rule of certain Kings etc.  Indeed the only time they stop making sense is when you pluck them out of their historical setting and try to make them mean something they dont -  the second coming of a Christian man/god.

For example, when jesus says in the temple, "tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days." I think that is a clear prophesy that jesus will rise 3 days after being put to death. But it was not--and could not--be understood by those hearing the message.

[ulmont]

This forces those who want it all to "fit" to come up with these elaborate explanations for how all this grossly contradictory crap can all be the verbatim Word of God.

It really is quite amusing.

Still, better than people spending their time explaining why it makes sense that Han Solo did the Kessel run in 12 parsecs...

[Crazy_Ivan80]

the second by by saying many prophesies in the bible were not understandable at the time they were transmitted.

I will take you up on this point and leave the first for Berkut.

Not sure why you think the prophesies in the New and Old Testament dont make sense.  There is a lot of textual scholarship out there that explains them very well.  For example Revelation is a diatribe against Roman Rule, Many of the prophesies in the Old Testament are actually written to legitimize the rule of certain Kings etc.  Indeed the only time they stop making sense is when you pluck them out of their historical setting and try to make them mean something they dont -  the second coming of a Christian man/god.

't might just be overal better if the whole bible gets published with an accompanying book explaining the context of the times, places, cultures, etc it was written in/influenced by. Mere footnotes doing that are no longer enough

[Caliga]

Princesca has a book like what you describe.  She got it in college as part of some religion course.

[PDH]

I use the Cliffs Notes.

[crazy canuck]

I use the Cliffs Notes.

That Cliff guy really gets around.

[Valmy]

't might just be overal better if the whole bible gets published with an accompanying book explaining the context of the times, places, cultures, etc it was written in/influenced by. Mere footnotes doing that are no longer enough

Already written:

[crazy canuck]

For example, when jesus says in the temple, "tear down this temple and I will rebuild it in three days." I think that is a clear prophesy that jesus will rise 3 days after being put to death. But it was not--and could not--be understood by those hearing the message.

Each of the Gospels (the ones in the Bible and all the Gospels that didnt make the cut) were written to instruct the growing community of Christians about the relatively new  religion.   Most scholars agree that the early Christians did not take the Bible literally but indeed did understand it metaphorically.   If you carefully study the inconsistencies in each of the Gospels you will see that the writers were crafting a story to address their own particular theology and their own particular audience.  They were not creating a kind of transcript of what was said or an historically correct document.

So, I disagree with your point that the prophesies of Jesus recorded in the Gospels did not make sense to their audience.  They were written in the Gospels for the very reason that they DID make sense to their audience.  The Gospels were after all teaching tools.

It is when one takes the view that the Bible is literally true and that the Bible is the Word of God that people run into trouble trying to explain away all the inconsistences that appear throughout.  Taking your discussion with Berkut as a case in point.  There are at least two creation stories and two flood stories that are conflated in the OT.  The reason for that has nothing to do with prophesies that are not understandable.  They are just two separate stories that have some commonalities but also many differences.

It is the same is true with the four Gospels of the Bible -  some commonalities but a lot of differences as well,  some of which are simply irreconcilable.

[Tamas]

This forces those who want it all to "fit" to come up with these elaborate explanations for how all this grossly contradictory crap can all be the verbatim Word of God.

It really is quite amusing.

Still, better than people spending their time explaining why it makes sense that Han Solo did the Kessel run in 12 parsecs...

No. It is EXACTLY the same thing.

[crazy canuck]

No. It is EXACTLY the same thing.

Laws are not created based on the sayings in Yoda, so no, its not exactly the same.

[Valmy]

[Each of the Gospels (the ones in the Bible and all the Gospels that didnt make the cut) were written to instruct the growing community of Christians about the relatively new  religion.   Most scholars agree that the early Christians did not take the Bible literally but indeed did understand it metaphorically.

True.  I challenge anybody to explain alot of the passages, like Mark 11:11-14 for example, literally:

11And Jesus entered into Jerusalem, and into the temple: and when he had looked round about upon all things, and now the eventide was come, he went out unto Bethany with the twelve.

12And on the morrow, when they were come from Bethany, he was hungry:

13And seeing a fig tree afar off having leaves, he came, if haply he might find any thing thereon: and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not yet.

14And Jesus answered and said unto it, No man eat fruit of thee hereafter for ever. And his disciples heard it.

Why the fuck would Jesus curse a fig tree for not having fruit at a time it was not supposed to have fruit?

[Valmy]

No. It is EXACTLY the same thing.

As soon as a billion people convert to Jedi-ism it will.