Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

I know Galloway is a prat of the highest order, but I know nothing about Panesar. Resigning his candidature because he realizes he doesn't know what's going on in politics seems... refreshingly self-aware. Or is that an overly generous reading?

I think it is. He was an international cricketer for England.

I think he got talked into running for Galloway's party, has faced a lot of criticism and some very awkward media interviews and has now stepped back.

It would have been nice (not least for his reputation as he's now a bit of a joke) if the self-awareness came first but fair enough on getting out early.

Edit: Sorry, refreshingly self-aware not too generous.

[Richard Hakluyt]

I remember reading about the 1851 Great Exhibition (which made a substantial profit) and the differential pricing model it used. Most tickets were a shilling iirc, but on certain days the price could be as much as a guinea. This made it accessible to the masses and extracted a lot from the better-off who preferred and could afford a less crowded day.

1 shilling = 12 old pence
1 Guinea =21 shillings

[PJL]

I remember reading about the 1851 Great Exhibition (which made a substantial profit) and the differential pricing model it used. Most tickets were a shilling iirc, but on certain days the price could be as much as a guinea. This made it accessible to the masses and extracted a lot from the better-off who preferred and could afford a less crowded day.

1 shilling = 12 old pence
1 Guinea =21 shillings

That's about £6 and £125 in today's money.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Sounds about right, about the difference between the cost of a pint or a ticket to the opera.

[Josquius]

Britain and things it's good at - I really wouldn't put education in there.
It's a tough one as yes. Some people are getting very rich off the mass imports of Chinese students....
But is that really what education is meant to be for?
What Brits are getting is fucking awful compared to the rest of Northern Europe.


Corbyn being crap - he is that. But still. I'd take a Labour government led by him over Johnsons tories any day.
Though my ideal outcome of the last General election was a Labour minority.

I'm not particularly convinced on the "imperial nostalgia" diagnosis, but I think we do have a bit of an "industrial nostalgia". Fully aware that the economics behind that were buttressed by empire, but I don't think people are necessarily making that connection - I think they just think producing things, making things is somehow almost morally better than services.

Britain : Confuscianist country?

[Gups]

Britain and things it's good at - I really wouldn't put education in there.
It's a tough one as yes. Some people are getting very rich off the mass imports of Chinese students....
But is that really what education is meant to be for?
What Brits are getting is fucking awful compared to the rest of Northern Europe.


Corbyn being crap - he is that. But still. I'd take a Labour government led by him over Johnsons tories any day.
Though my ideal outcome of the last General election was a Labour minority.

I don't know what you define as Northern Europe but by the only objective measure there is (PISA), the UK is 14th in the world and 5th in Europe - behind Finland, Estonia, Ireland and Switzerland but ahead of everyone else including Sweden, Netherlands, Germany and Norway. And that's despite Scotland dragging the scores down.

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/pisa-scores-by-country

Our universities are way behind the States in any rankings but way ahead of any other country in the world. Oxford, Cambridge, Imperial and UCL are all in the top 25, only one other European University (ETH Zurich) is.

I can't envisage a 2019 Labour minority government lasting more than a year. It would have been pulled apart by internal Brexit tensions and the risk of a Truss like reaction by internal markets. We would have ended up with a massive Tory makority in a 2020 election and the probable split of the Labour party.

[HVC]

We've had this discussion before, Josq refuses to believe that England has a good education system because he rejects the metrics by which those stats are calculated.

[Richard Hakluyt]

In a sense it doesn't really matter since we are talking about economics rather than education per se. The point is that foreigners are willing to pay large sums for a British education, it is a profitable export industry that provides many good jobs and we can use the foreign exchange to buy the stuff that we are relatively bad at making.

[HVC]

To the tune of £42 Billion as of 2022

[Josquius]

In a sense it doesn't really matter since we are talking about economics rather than education per se. The point is that foreigners are willing to pay large sums for a British education, it is a profitable export industry that provides many good jobs and we can use the foreign exchange to buy the stuff that we are relatively bad at making.

However the point of education isn't meant to be to make money in itself but to create the conditions (educated workforce, innovation, etc...) by which other segments of the economy can enjoy success.

Fair enough that Britain is doing well selling this 'product' to foreigners. But are we sacrificing our broader economic success and the wellbeing of our people as a result?

Is there so much extra value from all those Chinese students paying big money to get a bit of paper from Teeside University (completely random example name, no comment on its actual quality) to make it worth so many local students paying £9k a year for worthless degrees in finger painting  rather than getting polytechnic qualifications that directly set them up for skilled work?

[HVC]

Foreigners don't push kids into liberal arts, bad parenting does

[HVC]

Actually, didn't you do some schooling in Japan? If so, shame on you for subjugating some poor Japanese student into a calligraphy course

[Josquius]

I don't mean "STEM degrees are the only worthy degrees!!" here. I'm not one of those types.
I'm specifically talking about shit-tier degrees, from shit-tier universities, which used to do a good job as polytechnics/hogeschools/technical universities/whatever you know them as.
I've found in other North European countries there's a lot more respect for vocational education with an actual clear and respected higher educational path available. In the UK we've this attitude that if you don't go to university then you're a loser and due to terrible policy decisions in changing polytechnics to universities and the various commercialisation that followed, we have a huge gap where we just aren't properly providing for young people in this technically-inclined higher-level niche.

[Richard Hakluyt]

That is a different debate Jos and, like you, I believe there is massive room for improvement in British education.

Speaking of the fees they have been £9k for ages and many of our universities would go under without the fees charged to foreigners.

I'm also not sure that there are as many useless degrees as the right wing press would have us believe. Our local university here has a very high proportion of vocational courses and, after all, who is to say that finger painting is worthless?

[Gups]

That is a different debate Jos and, like you, I believe there is massive room for improvement in British education.

Speaking of the fees they have been £9k for ages and many of our universities would go under without the fees charged to foreigners.

I'm also not sure that there are as many useless degrees as the right wing press would have us believe. Our local university here has a very high proportion of vocational courses and, after all, who is to say that finger painting is worthless?

And given our other big exports include film, TV and music