Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Gups]

Those London flats look like the Byker Wall, also made for the same reason and with largely the same outcome- there's an over-engineered dual carriageway next to them that opens on a disastrous accident spot roundabout

In this case it just backs out onto a normal London road - and one that's actually, since then, become quite cool with Brixton Market which houses lots of restaurants and bars etc. But in the 1960s/70s looked to be in terminal decline, plus no-one needs to live near a market anymore etc.

To nick that Cameron line, the thing that always worries me looking at YIMBYism and my own views and the post-war planners is that they were the future once

True, though worth noting those post war planners were imagining something new and never seen before.
Cars were the hot new thing and nobody understood how they'd work in practice, the concept of induced demand, etc...

New urbanism is more about learning from the past and looking to imitate the success stories and positive aspects whilst ironing out the mistakes.
There's little utopian dabbling with something new and trying to create the future (definitely not on a large scale)... Rather its about trying to copy tried and tested success stories.

Rather than "We are going to create a sci fi city of the future" (NEOM...) its "Look at Groningen and Freiburg im Breisgau and how they solved these problems and became such nice places"

Cars was pretty common by immediate the post-war period. They certainly weren't a new thing by the 1960s when the Brixton barrier block (approved by John Major in fact) were built. Too many post-war planners/architects (there was minimal distinction between those professions then) cared very little about the ultimate users of their products or about finding out what they would want. The many flaws in post-war planning arise from arrogance not naivety demonstrated by the backlash to the London Plan with its inner city motorways (for which these flats were soundproofed) and demolition of large swathes of central London.

[Tamas]

So the uproar over Starmer not adopting the pan-Muslim position on Gaza... is that actually going to help him in positioning to the center where he wants to? I recon it does. I mean, I am for one happy he has not yet been pressured to LARP Corbyn over the issue.

[Josquius]

Cars was pretty common by immediate the post-war period. They certainly weren't a new thing by the 1960s when the Brixton barrier block (approved by John Major in fact) were built. Too many post-war planners/architects (there was minimal distinction between those professions then) cared very little about the ultimate users of their products or about finding out what they would want. The many flaws in post-war planning arise from arrogance not naivety demonstrated by the backlash to the London Plan with its inner city motorways (for which these flats were soundproofed) and demolition of large swathes of central London.

Cars weren't new-new obviously. They were invented in the 19th century.
But the place of motor vehicles in the world pre-war was very different to in the era of mass motorisation. The UK was rather slow off the mark post-war with this switch too. IIRC up until the 50s (maybe even 60s?) there was a pretty lengthy waiting list for getting a car and they remained somewhat of a luxury right up to the 70s when mass ownership really became established- and fortunately when planners began to wake up and realise how misplaced car centric design was.

Definitely true that there was a disconnect from end users. Very much a top down sort of view of all those cars zooming around on highways above the city streets with little consideration for how exactly traffic is going to squeeze down those tight and deadly sliproads or how pedestrians will get across the street.

[Sheilbh]

Bone has been suspended from the Commons for six weeks which is enough to trigger a recall petition. If he doesn't resign (and he absolutely rejects all the allegations), I'd expect that recall petition to be successful and cause a byelection. I think so far ever recall petition in GB has been successful, the only one that failed was in Northern Ireland and even it came close.

Sorry got this wrong the recommendation was a six week suspension. Commons looked at it today and not a single "no" so it didn't even require a vote. He's suspended for six weeks which will trigger an automatic recall petition which I'd very much expect to be successful.

He got 62% of the vote at the last election with Labour on 26%. Given the recent by-elections (and national polls) I think you'd expect Labour to win at the by-election.

[Sheilbh]

Sacred tree update:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/26/ancient-pear-tree-comes-back-to-life-after-being-felled-to-make-way-for-hs2

[Josquius]

My local MP has been suspended from Labour for a year now with zero clue of what for 

[Richard Hakluyt]

Yet another Tory MP arrested this time on a very serious charge :

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2023/oct/26/conservative-mp-arrested-on-suspicion-of-rape-and-drugs-possession

If they had any capacity for reflection the tories would be asking themselves "are we the bad guys?".

[Sheilbh]

Although those types of allegations and investigations are sadly not just a Tory thing. I think Esther Webber reported that there were over 50 MPs under investigation for one form of sexual misconduct or the other, some of which are then being handed to the police for investigation - and it is reportedly across all the parties.

I've no idea with Nick Brown (who I assume is Jos' MP) but he has been suspended from the Labour Party and sitting as an independent because of investigations for over a year. As I say - no idea what the investigation is into or what the allegation is.

In this case Crispin Blunt has identified himself as the MP which is probably good and will stop speculation online:


Another case where the victim will be a young man.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Interesting. With faith in politicians at an all-time low they must be vulnerable to extortion; so I would agree his coming forward is welcome.

[Jacob]

The British based social media that comes across my feed (mostly Reddit) is very strongly pro-Palestinian. Not sure how accurate a reflection it is of actual public sentiment, but it's interesting.

One thing that's also interesting is the Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf - who is Palestinian  [correction: who is Muslim and has a Palestinian father-in-law]. I imagine it must be pretty anguishing to have family in Gaza right now. And I expect it's also challenging to have a strong public platform and responsibility and figuring out how to navigate the intersection of those two things.

So far, from what I've seen, Yousaf has come out pretty squarely pro-Gazan and pro-Palestinian, and quite critical of Israel. Scottish Reddit thinks that's great, but I wonder how this will play out fo Yousaf.

[Sheilbh]

The British based social media that comes across my feed (mostly Reddit) is very strongly pro-Palestinian. Not sure how accurate a reflection it is of actual public sentiment, but it's interesting.

From the polling, there is really strong polarisation among the most politically committed and mobilised which is probably being reflected on social media. It is being followed unusually closely by many people compared to most foreign policy issues that don't directly involve British troops (Ukraine being another big exception - 60% of people say they're still following the Ukraine conflict very or fairly closely).

Among the general public there isn't much polarisation but they're not really clustering around a view. The most popular options are "don't know", "none of the above" and the UK should remain neutral. Dig into it a little and it seems there's a fair amount of empathy with civilians on both sides, anxiety at what's hapening, feeling it's all very complex - and, for a minority, indifference. I'm not a million miles from the average Brit on this.

I don't support a carte blanche for Israel but I think in principle they have a right to self-defence. But with that, I want to know what they intend to achieve. I'm very sympathetic to civilians in Gaza. At the same time I find the increasing denialism around Hamas' attacks on Israeli civilians really worrying. And purely locally I'm very aware that British Jews feel targeted and alone. And I think some of what seems to be coming out of the academy absolutely batshit. I don't think all those things are necessarily contradictory but I'd find it very difficult to answer a pollster.

Also the left alternative media like Novara has been very vocal on this - again they're quite big on social media. I've liked some of the people on Novara before, I've thought some of their pieces have been interesting. But I think the line some of them have taken make me think that no-one from Labour or the mainstream left should be going near them anymore.

One thing that's also interesting is the Scottish First Minister Humza Yousaf - who is Palestinian. I imagine it must be pretty anguishing to have family in Gaza right now. And I expect it's also challenging to have a strong public platform and responsibility and figuring out how to navigate the intersection of those two things.

He's Scots-Pakistani (like the Scottish Labour leader). His father-in-law is Palestinian - married to a Scottish woman, lives in Dundee. His in-laws, I believe, are in Gaza where they were visiting family. As you say, I imagine that's very difficult.

I hope they've got in touch now, but to begin with neither the Foreign Secretary nor Sunak apparently got in touch with him about it - which I think is pretty disgraceful. At the very least I think they should have put in the call and regardless of politics, he's the First Minister of a nation in the UK.

So far, from what I've seen, Yousaf has come out pretty squarely pro-Gazan and pro-Palestinian, and quite critical of Israel. Scottish Reddit thinks that's great, but I wonder how this will play out fo Yousaf.

Pretty well. I think public opinion is generally not particularly sympathetic to Israel, but I think particularly within Scotland and particularly, I think, within nationalist parties - in part because it's a useful wedge against Labour.

Also obviously with Scotland there is a sectarian angle in the football generally, most strongly in Glasgow. Obviously that in part reflects the position in Northern Ireland (and to an extent this is also part of Ireland's very strong sympathies with Palestinians). So despite the club requesting no banners, flags or symbols relating to the conflict, this was Celtic Park in their European game this week:


Edit: That isn't to imply it's purely sectarian or a cynical wedge issue from Yousaf.  I'm fairly sure he's talking from his own beliefs and is absolutely in the mainstream of the SNP on this. It will also be a wedge issue v Labour and there is a sectarian side to Scottish politics that doesn't exist in England and Wales.

[Gups]

You're overthinking it. 85% of the population don't give a shit. And that's probably an underestimate.

[Sheilbh]

You're overthinking it. 85% of the population don't give a shit. And that's probably an underestimate.

Maybe but I think in the polls 70% say they're following it very or fairly closely which is, from what I understand, very high for anything to do with foreign policy where there's no obvious British involvement (Ukraine's another example).

I think most people are in that don't know/none of the above/neutral view for many reasons. But the most politically engaged and active on social media really really care and are polarised on this.

[Josquius]

Completely unscientific licking my finger and putting it in the air analysis...
The impression I get is the vast majority of invested people, especially online, have an over the top hate of Israel and view the Palestinians can do no wrong.
There's some real scumminess here where every discussion seems to be just a game of weedle out the Israeli sympathiser.

Contrary to this a huge number of those that don't care and don't really have much of a view seem to just take the media view of Israel is basically always in the right and the Palestinians are a bunch of terrorists - sucks their kids are dying but they should have thought of that before they went around being Musli... Terrorist.

The settlements and Israeli politcal situation just aren't something people seem to get.

[Sheilbh]

By the by the Met took a totally different approach on policing with the pro-Palestine march and the Bring Them Home vigil, which I actually think was very good.

I don't totally agree with all of the Met's decisions but basically there was lots of social media content circulating from the Palestine march. The Met's social media team were responding to those explaining what action (if any) they were going to take. Basically live-tweeting their decisions.

For example, one video of one person with the message that you don't need to speak Arabic to hear the words "Hamas" "yehud" and "kufr". They then promptly replied that they've got specialist officers with language skills and subject expertise. The video was a hate crime offence and asking for information (he's since been arrested). Or this post:

Metropolitan Police
@metpoliceuk
While this tweet has been deleted, the claim about flags is still being shared.

The flags in the lower left photo are not those of ISIS. 

They are the 'shahada' which is a declaration of faith in Islam.  ISIS flags may appear similar but are not the same. 

We have specialist officers with knowledge of flags working on this operation to assist with these assessments.

We know the original poster received abuse following our earlier tweet. This is unacceptable. We have intentionally blocked out his name and X handle.

At the vigil saying they were there and an individual had been arrested for shouting anti-semitic abuse when driving past.

I criticise the Met a lot - but I've never seen them do this before and I think it's a really effective way of policing especially with protests. Also regularly posting the areas where there are public order restrictions (basicallly around the Israeli embassy), but also very regular updates on their meetings with the Community Safety Trust and Tell Mama (leading groups against anti-semitism and Islamophobia in the UK, who work together quite a lot). Don't know about on the ground but I think the communications have been really good and it's a far better approach than I think they've taken previously.

Lots of people are taking the piss about it but I think it's basically good.