Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[celedhring]

Looking up the relevant legislation it seems it only applies to wine & liquor, so beer is exempted. The US also apparently regulates wine/liquor (again, not beer) bottle sizes, too. I guess there must be a reason? Seems a bit silly at first glance.

Apparently the Japanese managed to get an exepmtion for their imported sake bottles on their FTA with the EU.

[Sheilbh]

I'm sure I've mentioned this before. It is bizzare and annoying quite how much gammon copy and paste American talking points seemingly without noticing.
Then turn around and throw a fit that people are just copying America with BLM.

Although obviously there is an element of that on the left with BLM too. I've mentioned before but there was a very well-meaning guide on diversity by Hackney Council that repeatedly referred to BIPOC. In the context of the UK if I see someone talking about "indigenous" communities, my assumption is they're BNP members

Does the EU really legislate bottle sizes? Could this be a result of 33 and 50 cl being far more convenient for the breweries and the EU getting the blame?

So I'm not sure on legislation of bottle sizes specifically. But there are regulations standardising the sizes of pre-packaged products, which I think include bottles, tins etc. The UK and Ireland were given a permanent opt-out on certain of these standardisations, for example to keep a pint bottle for milk and also given an opt-out to allow the sale of goods in imperial measurements (if metric was also displayed) - this was after the "metric martyrs" who were market sellers who were arrested and charged with breaching trading standards because they were selling goods in lbs.

Similarly as part of the recent EU negotiations with Japan they've created a derogation to allow Japanese producers to sell various alcohols in traditional Japanese size bottles into the EU, rather than requiring them to follow EU "pre-packaging" regulations.

In terms of conveninence you're right - but it'd be interesting to see if anyone does manufacture it and if it sells because (I didn't realise this until this story came out) the UK is the world's largest export for champagne. That isn't per capita - we drink more bottles of champagne per year than anywhere outside France (even including the US etc). So there may be a big market.

I also think a bottle with four glasses is quite a good idea because it is, as that article says, easier to split than the current half-bottle. It's basically the size of a carafe in a restaurant so just a bit weird that it isn't a pre-made bottle size.

[Josquius]

I was out walking today and got to thinking of solving all the countries problems as is my wont.
So here is my thoroughly unresearched brain storm on how we will mend council tax.
Actual numbers in particular pulled out of my arse and not crunched.

1: For owner occupiers in their primary residence council tax is set at a rate like eg
<12k: 0
12k-25k: 8%
25k-40k: 12%
40k-80k: 16%
80k+: 20%
Something is in place where mortgage payments are deducted in working this out.

2: For people in rented accommodation it looks more like
<12k: 0
12k-25k: 6%
25k-40k: 10%

3: For second homes the rate is more like
<12k: 2%
12k-25k: 16%
25k-40k: 22%
40k+: 26%

4: For people who rent out accommodation.... The tax rate is set at 50% of what they're renting it out for or 50% of the fair market rate. Whichever is higher (edit - with deductions in place of you're charging less than market rate say. Half of the % under it you're charging).
Temporary relief between tenants is available for up to 3 months then you drop onto the second home rate.

5: You can avoid the massive tax rate for rental income by signing over management to an accredited social housing provider. Ideally this would be a local council but in practice probably a housing association. Registration of these is tightly controlled and severely limited to cut off any attempts at exploiting loop holes. Do this and you can half the amount of tax you're paying on rental income. But you don't get to choose who lives there and tenants have other extra rights.

As I say actual numbers completely not thought through and doubtless a gap somewhere?
But thoughts?

[Zanza]

What is the reference the percentage refers to? Real estate price? If so, how is that calculated?  How is the fair market rate calculated? 

[Threviel]

We inherited a house and are currently renting it out. 50% tax on renting and we would rent out at a loss or perhaps around break even.

We would sell instead and the single mother living there with her two teenage daughters would have a hard time finding something else.

Good one there, kicks everyone in the teeth, classic unthinking leftism.

[Josquius]

We inherited a house and are currently renting it out. 50% tax on renting and we would rent out at a loss or perhaps around break even.

How on earth would you be making a loss paying even 50% of the income on a house you own completely?

We would sell instead and the single mother living there with her two teenage daughters would have a hard time finding something else.

Except she would have more access to social housing, more properties within her price range, and a better chance of saving up to buy.

?

Good one there, kicks everyone in the teeth, classic unthinking leftism.

If you want the zero thought beyond direct cause and effect you're looking for conservatism.

What is the reference the percentage refers to? Real estate price? If so, how is that calculated?  How is the fair market rate calculated? 

.

Income.
The current system where you pay a fixed amount based on 1990 prices no matter your income is madness and puts the burden disproportionately on the poor.
I think we should move more towards the more standard in Europe municipal tax system (which would cover the middle level too in largely hyper centralised 2 tier UK)

Fair market rate should be judged by local councils based on average prices.

[Sheilbh]

I'm dubious that what we need in this country is more income taxes as opposed to taxes of wealth - including land/property.

[mongers]

I'm dubious that what we need in this country is more income taxes as opposed to taxes of wealth - including land/property.

Indeed, but a political impossibility.

[Threviel]

To take care of a house is not cheap. Every now and then stuff has to be fixed or maintained and money for that has to be set aside. A very much non-trivial amount.

Besides that there's property taxes, insurance and other assorted costs. Also not trivial amounts. Insurance alone is about 8% of the rent coming in.

Eventual profit is taxed, also not trivial. Not an issue if there's no profit, but an issue now.

I spend a lot of time fixing and maintaining and I don't expect to do that for free.

A lot of obvious costs with renting out that you obviously aren't thinking about. We make ok right now, but in truth we would probably earn more if we sold and invested the money in the stock market. We are very much not rolling in cash.

[Zanza]

In Germany the income you gain from renting out property is taxed with your normal personal progressive income tax (up to 45% marginal rate) that you also pay on other sources of income (employment, freelancing etc.). You can of course deduct the costs you accrue to generate that income to reduce your tax base, e.g. interest, depreciation etc.

On top of that, you pay a land value tax that depends on the property value as assessed by the municipality. But you can add that in top of the rent (similar to water usage or heating).

[Josquius]

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Re: Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom
« Reply #18951 on: Today at 11:39:58 am »
Quote
I'm dubious that what we need in this country is more income taxes as opposed to taxes of wealth - including land/property.

To an extent I have sympathy with this idea. But I don't like the idea that if someone temporarily falls on hard times they'd be forced to sell their home. Basing it solely on property value would lead to even more cleansing of locals from areas where prices are sky high, one of the key problems we want to solve.
I did consider whether maybe there should be some sort of property value aspect to things considering overseas owners sitting on empty property et al. But I don't think that should be the main rule.

To take care of a house is not cheap. Every now and then stuff has to be fixed or maintained and money for that has to be set aside. A very much non-trivial amount.

Besides that there's property taxes, insurance and other assorted costs. Also not trivial amounts. Insurance alone is about 8% of the rent coming in.

Eventual profit is taxed, also not trivial. Not an issue if there's no profit, but an issue now.

I spend a lot of time fixing and maintaining and I don't expect to do that for free.

A lot of obvious costs with renting out that you obviously aren't thinking about. We make ok right now, but in truth we would probably earn more if we sold and invested the money in the stock market. We are very much not rolling in cash.

I own a house. Compared to what I'd get renting it out maintaince costs are neglible.
If renting it out I could afford a new boiler every year if need be and still be in the green.

Encouraging landlords to sell up as not being worth the effort is very much by design rather than an unthought of side effect. Interesting you keep jumping to this assumption.

I don't get how property tax matters at all here. You're not selling.

[Sheilbh]

In Germany the income you gain from renting out property is taxed with your normal personal progressive income tax (up to 45% marginal rate) that you also pay on other sources of income (employment, freelancing etc.). You can of course deduct the costs you accrue to generate that income to reduce your tax base, e.g. interest, depreciation etc.

On top of that, you pay a land value tax that depends on the property value as assessed by the municipality. But you can add that in top of the rent (similar to water usage or heating).

It's very similar here - it's taxed as part of your income with some additional deductions for costs etc.

Council tax which is the property tax is the responsibility of the tenant/occupier (normally so are utility bills).

The slight complication is that I imagine smart landlords - or ones with many properties - will set up companies (normally one per property) in which case they'll either pay capital gains when they sell or their income would be taxed as dividends, which is slightly different.

[Threviel]

Property tax is a tax we pay on property in thr form of land and houses. Perhaps it has another name in GB.

Seems like the market in GB is very different from here. Our tenants pay about 8-9000 SEK monthly.

A few years ago we changed the water waste system for about 200 000 SEK. On the horizon is 5 new windows and ceilings in 4-5 rooms. And after that I see other stuff coming constantly.

That's impossible to finance with an 4000 SEK income.

Apparently my experience is not relevant for GB.

[Zanza]

I guess I don't understand Tyr's proposal then.

[Josquius]

Yeah, property tax here is what you pay when buying/selling a property.
Council tax is a different thing. It's municipal tax based on what the property you are living in cost in 1991 with very little difference between Buckingham Palace or a 1 bedroom flat in Barrow. It is solely the responsibility of the resident. Owners pay jack.