Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Sheilbh]

Erm. This has been a mini-cause celebre on the online left for the last day or two.

So I like Loach as an artist and a film-maker, I'm not sure if I'd go along with Paul Mason's description that he is Britain's greatest living film-maker - but he's definitely up there.

Having said that he has spent most of the last twenty years supporting or founding far left groupuscules to oppose Labour - he backed Respect, he founded Left Unity, I think he was involved in the Trade Union and Socialist Coalition. They all stood against Labour until Corbyn when they announced their support for him. I think it is fair for a political party to maybe not want to associate with someone who's been trying to beat them for 20 years

And to be blunt he is a crank with deeply suspicious/problematic views on anything to do with Jews. You know back in the 80s he directed a play at the Royal Court (so new writing) about the Holocaust, the thrust of it was basically the old Soviet conspiracy theory that a leadership of Zionist Jews had done a deal with the Nazis and were collaborating to save themselves - so Israel was not just founded, in Loach's (which he has expanded on) on ethnic cleansing of Palestinians but also complicity in the Holocaust. There were huge protests by Jewish groups which caused the play to be pulled. It was also roundly attacked by historians as including a distortion or an inaccuracy on almost every page - and always in the same direction. That was, Loach said, the first time he'd faced the reality of the power of "Zionists" who want to maintain "the generalised sense of guilt everyone has about the Jews so that it remains an area that you can't discuss."

Since then he's spoken many times in the press about Israel and Palestine because he is a political activist. I think in that he does move from the acceptable to the very dodgy. For example when asked about whether it was acceptable to discuss whether the Holocaust happened he said: "I think history is for all of us to discuss. The founding of the state of Israel, for example, based on ethnic cleansing, is there for us all to discuss, so don't try and subvert that by false stories of antisemitism." Which of course neatly moves from it is part of history which is open to debate - to immediate whataboutery.

He's consistently stated that there is no anti-semitism in the Labour Party (like Corbyn he tends to use the phrasing of condemning "anti-semitism and all forms of racism") and does think that it was all basically a media lie/campaign. I think Loach has called the BBC propagandistic on this - and that it was basically a plot to destroy Corbyn. From what I gather that is the line that Starmer has drawn - if you want to stay in the Labour Party you have to accept the EHRC report that there was pretty damning. If you dispute or minimise that by pointing to a media campaign or conspiracy theories about the Labour whistleblowers being funded by someone else etc, then you will be kicked out.

I think that's probably about the right line/approach to take. I think on his own statements there are wider very good reasons to not allow Loach - terrific artist though he is - in the party.

[Josquius]

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/aug/14/director-ken-loach-expelled-labour-party

Waiting on Tyr's perspective  on that, though all other Brits are welcome to give their input.

Why?

This is Labour being Labour's worst enemy round 9862.
Way too many people, particularly from the far left, seem more concerned with attacking Labour for being the wrong shade of red than actually subscribing to Labour's values and showing solidarity in stopping the Tories.

I had no idea about Loach's anti-semitism. Palestine/Israel isn't much of an issue to me. But in light of that kicking him does make sense. Rules need to be applied fairly no matter whether you're a big name.

[Josquius]

In other stuff, wasn't sure if here or the China thread was the right place. But seems Hkers have started coming...and its not going well for many.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/08/employers-seem-baffled-visa-hongkongers-fled-to-uk

ast year, Boris Johnson responded to the Chinese government's effort to crush the pro-democracy movement in Hong Kong by extending the right to live and work in the UK to about 3 million people living in the territory.

Many Hongkongers who have recently arrived in the UK say they want to be self-sufficient and have no desire to burden the British state. Despite that and them having the correct paperwork, they have met with obstacle after obstacle.

Jenny
Jenny arrived in London last year with her teenage daughter. They have found it difficult to gain access to education, affordable housing and employment, despite their paperwork being in order and Jenny having worked as a corporate secretary for 10 years in Hong Kong.

My daughter's school said she couldn't enrol because of her visa. I showed them the government website that allows her to study but it took them a month to agree. Nobody seems to understand the rules for people coming from Hong Kong.

I found a small studio flat in south-east London but I was asked to pay six months' rent in advance. I paid it, I had no choice.

I work 20 hours a week for £8.90 an hour. I ask my boss every week to give me more hours but he says business is slow. I pay my rent with my savings. I have enough money to support ourselves this way for about a year, so we need a cheaper flat and I need to find more work. I don't mind having two jobs.

Queenie
Queenie moved to the UK in 2021, having worked in HR in Hong Kong.

Recruiters and HR departments just seemed to be really baffled by this visa. My equivalent role was being advertised in the UK, so I thought: 'Great, I have a pretty good chance of getting an interview.'

And they just flat-out said no. They said: 'Once you land in the UK and have a bank account, then we'll interview you.'

It's even more bizarre that, having been a student in the UK, I already have a national insurance number and I was able to give them it. But a lot of employers are still not clear on what the rights are.

My current employer had to seek immigration advice before making me the offer, which took some time. But I'm very grateful it happened.

Because I've studied here, I've been very, very lucky. Ex-colleagues, family and friends are having much more difficulty getting their qualifications recognised in the UK.

Samuel
Samuel moved with his family, who initially suffered financial hardship because of the difficulty his father – the main breadwinner – had finding a job. Added to that was the enormous cost of the move itself.

The NHS surcharge is about £3,000 per person. Other costs include booking the visa centre, submitting the application and the TB test. They bring the total to roughly £20,000.

This figure does not include the cost of plane tickets, living expenses, or housing, which would make the total expense way more than £20,000 over the next five years. Those, along with the ineligibility for public funds, are the greatest obstacles for Hongkongers seeking a way out.

Obviously, someone coming from a foreign country without family or friends is going to have a hard time finding a job. My father only recently found a job from a local employer with an annual salary of £20,000. Prior to that, he was being paid much less. We have been mostly relying on savings.

And discussion: https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/08/uk-not-doing-enough-to-support-those-fleeing-hong-kong-advocacy-group-says

Pretty sad that once the political points are scored they're then forgotten. But expected.

[Tamas]

Electing an incompetent moron for PM because he wears a funny hairdo while saying he can sort out everything because why not, kind of logically leads to incompetent moronness trickling down.

[Sheilbh]

I mean it is the Home Office - but as with Settlement Scheme it seems the focus needs to be on informing employers etc.

I also think all the fees should be waived for Hong Kongers because it's kind of a unique situation - but the core purpose is to offer people a way out.

But the number of applications so far has been higher than I was expecting and I think higher than the Home Office estimates which I think is an issue because they need to put funding and resources in place for people arriving. I know there's some efforts from NGOs in London and from areas with Cantonese communities but we shouldn't be relying on them.

[Sheilbh]

Geronimo the alpaca has been granted a "stay of execution" while there is a judicial review. My understanding is that a previous JR over whether the alpaca should be tested again to really check if it has bovine TB (it has already had two positive tests).

The latest argument for the JR is something along the lines of Geronimo should be kept alive for research and study.

I am increasingly a single issue "kill the alpaca" voter

[Threviel]

For us not living on the special isles, what's the deal with that alpaca? What's going on?

[Gups]

For us not living on the special isles, what's the deal with that alpaca? What's going on?

August = silly season. Haven't heard much about the alpacaca since Afghanistan started to hit the news.

[Duque de Bragança]

Erm. This has been a mini-cause celebre on the online left for the last day or two.

So I like Loach as an artist and a film-maker, I'm not sure if I'd go along with Paul Mason's description that he is Britain's greatest living film-maker - but he's definitely up there.

Like his politics or not, he showed up with some dumb leftists in France as well, I don't see anyone above him as a director in the UK. Yes, Ken Russell has been dead for ten years now.  Loach did not make movies for Vestron Pictures, however. 

Describing his conduct as anti-semitism for Ken Loach seems too strong but people can't separate anti-semitism from anti-zionism or even criticism of Israel. On both sides. OTOH, I don't know well enough the situation of Corbynite leftists in Labour to be sure.

[Sheilbh]

Like his politics or not, he showed up with some dumb leftists in France as well, I don't see anyone above him as a director in the UK. Yes, Ken Russell has been dead for ten years now.  Loach did not make movies for Vestron Pictures, however. 

Oh Ken Russell would definitely be up there if we're including the deceased. I had a university friend who's mum was one of the nuns in the Devils

I like Loach as a film-maker, but I think he makes too many films and I don't think he's got a great hit rate. I'd say maybe 1/3 is really good and the rest are the Ken Loach film again So I can see an argument for him being the greatest living film-maker purely by volume, of which a number are good.

But off the top of my head I'd go for Mike Leigh - he's had a long-ish career I think his films are almost always great and I just love them. I think I'd probably have him as the best/my favourite director from anywhere still working I find it very hard not to love a man whose muse is Timothy Spall

I think Steve McQueen hasn't made a less than excellent film (especially including the Small Axe anthology), I'd say more or less the same for Ben Wheatley (who Mark Kermode has said sort of seems to have taken on the mantle of Ken Russell). She's not made as many films despite being older than either of them (probably because of institutionalised sexism in British film-making) but I love Andrea Arnold as well.

Edit: Although this is a divide - it's been noted a lot that Ken Loach has a far greater reputation in France than he does in the UK.

Describing his conduct as anti-semitism for Ken Loach seems too strong but people can't separate anti-semitism from anti-zionism or even criticism of Israel. On both sides. OTOH, I don't know well enough the situation of Corbynite leftists in Labour to be sure.

I think play alleging that Zionists were collaborators with the Holocaust and "the Holocaust is history for us all to discuss if it happened" cross a line. And I have no issue with criticism of Israel - but there is I think a bit of code-wording about "Zionist" in the UK when what it seems to mean is "Jew". The best example I can think of is Corbyn's line about the "thankfully silent Zionists" in the audience of a friend's speech coming up to berate him who, despite "having lived in this country for a very long, probably all their lives don't understand English irony". I can't get to an interpretation in my head of how Zionist who's lived all their lives in the UK isn't a code-word for Jew who doesn't belong here/doesn't "get" irony.

[celedhring]

Oh Ken Russell would definitely be up there if we're including the deceased.

There's some obscure dude named Hitchcock you might wanna consider, too    Kubrick is kinda British too.

From the ones working today... yeah, I never want to miss a McQueen film. He's outstanding.

[Duque de Bragança]

Oh Ken Russell would definitely be up there if we're including the deceased. I had a university friend who's mum was one of the nuns in the Devils

I like Loach as a film-maker, but I think he makes too many films and I don't think he's got a great hit rate. I'd say maybe 1/3 is really good and the rest are the Ken Loach film again So I can see an argument for him being the greatest living film-maker purely by volume, of which a number are good.

But off the top of my head I'd go for Mike Leigh - he's had a long-ish career I think his films are almost always great and I just love them. I think I'd probably have him as the best/my favourite director from anywhere still working I find it very hard not to love a man whose muse is Timothy Spall

I think Steve McQueen hasn't made a less than excellent film (especially including the Small Axe anthology), I'd say more or less the same for Ben Wheatley (who Mark Kermode has said sort of seems to have taken on the mantle of Ken Russell). She's not made as many films despite being older than either of them (probably because of institutionalised sexism in British film-making) but I love Andrea Arnold as well.

Edit: Although this is a divide - it's been noted a lot that Ken Loach has a far greater reputation in France than he does in the UK.

As for France, I am not sure this movie made wonders in the pseudo-intelligentsia (football-hating it's France remember) for Ken Loach, unlike, say, Land and Freedom or even his early kitchen sink dramas (in the ™Norf™ for Tyr).

I think play alleging that Zionists were collaborators with the Holocaust and "the Holocaust is history for us all to discuss if it happened" cross a line. And I have no issue with criticism of Israel - but there is I think a bit of code-wording about "Zionist" in the UK when what it seems to mean is "Jew". The best example I can think of is Corbyn's line about the "thankfully silent Zionists" in the audience of a friend's speech coming up to berate him who, despite "having lived in this country for a very long, probably all their lives don't understand English irony". I can't get to an interpretation in my head of how Zionist who's lived all their lives in the UK isn't a code-word for Jew who doesn't belong here/doesn't "get" irony.

Some Zionists or all Zionists? Always unclear with English.  After taking a look, I see the play was quite liberally inspired by the Kastner case.

Anti-zionism or anti-semitism gets used in France for much less than those allegations, which, if true, are pretty damning. Or maybe I'm too used to big-tent Leftist parties in France which have no problem in having anti-semitic people claiming they are anti-zionists, mixed with leftist Jews who ignore it because the real problem is the FN/RN, according to both groups.

I guess Ken Loach has to be taken with a grain of salt, moreso than in his usual leftist politics (the video with Besancenot was bad enough).
I note Ken Loach was against Brexit (right?) and for another Europe, how is that compared to your average corbynite?

[Josquius]

I guess Ken Loach has to be taken with a grain of salt, moreso than in his usual leftist politics (the video with Besancenot was bad enough).
I note Ken Loach was against Brexit (right?) and for another Europe, how is that compared to your average corbynite?

Most Corbynistas oppose brexit. Often pretty strongly and aggressively. No doubt part of the misconception with pro-brexit folks that corbyn is against it (plus of course the fact things have to be black and white).
From that side of politics you do get some lexiters though. Largely people who haven't kept up with the times (like Corbyn himself) but its a messy group. They're a small minority either way.

[Sheilbh]

As for France, I am not sure this movie made wonders in the pseudo-intelligentsia (football-hating it's France remember) for Ken Loach, unlike, say, Land and Freedom or even his early kitchen sink dramas (in the ™Norf™ for Tyr).

Yeah I don't think that did terribly well here either. And he still does socially conscious kitchen sink dramas.

I think I'd split his best into the period dramas which are always about the left being betrayed (Land and Freedom, The Wind that Shakes the Barley), the social realist/kitchen sink dramas (I, Daniel Blake, Riff-Raff, The Navigators, Sweet Sixteen) and then I love Bread and Roses which is sort of social realist but somehow different because set in sunny LA rather than permanent drizzle

Some Zionists or all Zionists? Always unclear with English.  After taking a look, I see the play was quite liberally inspired by the Kastner case.

He was specifically talking about "Zionists" in the audience for that speech.

Anti-zionism or anti-semitism gets used in France for much less than those allegations, which, if true, are pretty damning. Or maybe I'm too used to big-tent Leftist parties in France which have no problem in having anti-semitic people claiming they are anti-zionists, mixed with leftist Jews who ignore it because the real problem is the FN/RN, according to both groups.

Yeah and even then you have 5-6 Leftist parties running and splitting the vote Labour is having fights over things that weren't issues for a very long time - so there's been a few commies kicked out because Labour is a parliamentary socialist party not a revolutionary socialist party. I genuinely thought that fight had been settled in early 20th century.

It is a bit scary though. I went to a Labour fundraiser charity night in my area and got chatting to the guy at my table - who was lovely. An older guy clearly very committed leftie who did lots of activism. He gave me his name to connect afterwards - I run a search and he's been expelled for anti-semitism and has a lot of hair-raising opinions on Israel/the Jews

I guess Ken Loach has to be taken with a grain of salt, moreso than in his usual leftist politics (the video with Besancenot was bad enough).
I note Ken Loach was against Brexit (right?) and for another Europe, how is that compared to your average corbynite?

Yeah I think he is allied with Varoufakis's group - so on this I basically agree with him and have the same approach to Brexit (it's a neo-liberal plot - we need to change it).

The average Corbynite is far more pro-Remain because they trend younger, university educated etc so all the demographics that tend to be very anti-Brexit.

But there is a hard-core section - probably the one most vulnerable to being kicked out of the Labour Party - of older activists, often former Trots who've always liked Corbyn and probably met him from one of the interminable Palestine Solidarity Campaign marches/events they've both attended. I think they are probably split between the Loach line and voting Leave (it's a neo-liberal plot - we need to get out). So the Socialist Party - which was created by Militant faction members after they were kicked out of Labour - was very anti-EU and a number of former Militant figures re-joined/tried to re-join Labour following Corbyn's success.

[Syt]

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2021/aug/17/protesters-claim-to-seize-edinburgh-castle-citing-magna-carta

Protesters claim to 'seize' Edinburgh Castle citing Magna Carta

Police at scene and public evacuated as about 20 demonstrators enter landmark in bid to 'take power back'

A group of about 20 protesters entered Edinburgh Castle on Tuesday evening, claiming to have "seized" the landmark under article 61 of Magna Carta.

Members of the public were evacuated as the demonstrators entered the grounds of the castle without a ticket. Police Scotland said that officers were dealing with the protest.

Reports emerged at about 5.45pm of an incident close to the entrance to the Museum of The Royal Regiment for Scotland.

The protesters filmed their protest on Facebook Live. In a 13-minute video, a woman says the castle "belongs to the people" and that they are "taking our power back". She adds the Scottish people have been "lied to all our lives" and that the "building belongs to us, we have taken the castle back" in an effort to "restore the rule of law".

A man adds: "Treason's been going on for that long now, we can't sit back and let everybody perish under the stupid legislation and fraudulent government tyranny, so let's just take it all back, not just the castle."

As police officers appear in the footage, the female protester told officers they were seizing the castle under article 61 of Magna Carta. Magna Carta – signed by King John in 1215 – has never applied in Scotland as it predates the Act of Union.

A Police Scotland spokesperson said: "Officers are currently in attendance at Edinburgh Castle and are engaging with a group of people who have gathered within the castle grounds."

A spokesperson for Historic Environment Scotland told the Edinburgh Evening News: "A group of around 20 individuals entered Edinburgh Castle this evening without payment. After refusing requests to leave the premises Police Scotland were called to the site and are dealing with the matter. There are no other visitors currently on site."