Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Tamas]

Yeah the nothing special bit is a good point, the NHS-reverence took be my surprise when it dawned on me after coming here, because, sure it seems nice, and it was among the early ones but it is what I'd expect from a civilised country, and certainly it didn't feel all that different to what's there in Hungary (at least on a theoretical level).

[PJL]

NHS reverence is so high in the UK, we've sacrificed 100,000 souls to its altar in the last year.

[mongers]

NHS reverence is so high in the UK, we've sacrificed 100,000 souls to its altar in the last year.

[Barrister]

We have the same reverence for our healthcare system in Canada.  Sure, it's a better system than the US has.  But if you propose any kind of increased role for the private sector you get accused of trying to promote "American-style" health care.  Even if you try to point to examples like Australia or Germany.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Exactly the same here of course, the comparison is always with the USA; which is setting the bar rather low...on the floor really.

[Sheilbh]

Exactly the same here of course, the comparison is always with the USA; which is setting the bar rather low...on the floor really.

I think it goes both ways. I think the US imagines more socialised healthcare and they imagine the NHS which would not be appropriate in America.

I think the UK attitude to medical care of generally being grateful for what we're given would not go well in the US - and of course there is explicit rationing, which we all buy into and think is worth the price of all the other stuff.

Plus I remember speaking to a friend in the NHS because I have private insurance through work and was always unsure if I should use it - because on the one hand it takes pressure off the NHS, on the other it feels like if midddle class people with private insurance through work drift from the NHS then it won't survive. She explained the bits that you should go private for (both from a costs perspective for the NHS and expertise - because the two align). She basically said if you have a chronic condition, cancer or any mental health issue then you should go private. If you have an accident, need emergency care or are pregnant then you should definitely go NHS. Which was interesting

[Josquius]

Corona has given it a great boost but I think the nhs is underrated in the UK.
A big problem with the UK and the NHS is we are just so unaware of how things are elsewhere. It was a huge culture shock for me to be hit with a bill when I went to a doctor abroad for the first time.
In Switzerland I went months completely not getting that you have to sort out your own private insurance.
If there was more realisation of how things are abroad people would realise how good we have it.
Knowing British people and how cheap we are (I'm definitely guilty of it) a private system would be massively more expensive as people wait until conditions are dire to be seen.

Private health care in the UK just seems wrong. Most of the doctors are the same as with the nhs. You just... Pay your way up the list.

[garbon]

My former GP told me to go private when I needed to see a specialist to have a mole checked out.

[Jacob]

We have the same reverence for our healthcare system in Canada.  Sure, it's a better system than the US has.  But if you propose any kind of increased role for the private sector you get accused of trying to promote "American-style" health care.  Even if you try to point to examples like Australia or Germany.

Yeah of course, because we have an example of how badly it could get fucked up so we're risk averse. You may mean well and be aiming for a German system (or whatever), but if there's a 5% chance it gets us to an American system down the road some time it's not worth it. You've rolled enough d20s to know a 1 will show up some time.

Better not risk it, unless there's a compelling reason to. And "minor adjustment along the margins that may or may not lead to better outcomes for a small subset of patients," "creating some nice new profit centres for investors in private health care," and/ or "ideologically I prefer increasing private enterprise presence in non-elastic essential services" are not compelling enough.

And truth be told, we've had a fair bit of privatization over the years - both in Canada and the UK. While I'm sure there have been some that have improved outcomes compared to the previous gov't run ones, there's nothing that springs to mind as such a resounding improvement for end users to the degree it makes even a small risk of ending up even remotely near American style.

It's hard to sell something as an improvement when there's a nearby example of that something going disastrously wrong.

[The Larch]

Plus I remember speaking to a friend in the NHS because I have private insurance through work and was always unsure if I should use it - because on the one hand it takes pressure off the NHS, on the other it feels like if midddle class people with private insurance through work drift from the NHS then it won't survive.

Huh? What does that matter if you keep paying your taxes? It won't survive unless the middle class use it even to the detriment of the private health providers?

[Sheilbh]

Plus I remember speaking to a friend in the NHS because I have private insurance through work and was always unsure if I should use it - because on the one hand it takes pressure off the NHS, on the other it feels like if midddle class people with private insurance through work drift from the NHS then it won't survive.

Huh? What does that matter if you keep paying your taxes? It won't survive unless the middle class use it even to the detriment of the private health providers?

Welfare that is for the poor becomes poor welfare.

I've swung heavily to thinking that if you want a welfare benefit to survive it has to be universal so I think the universal principle and use is really important for health (and education) and ideally I'd expand it to other sectors.

[Valmy]

I've swung heavily to thinking that if you want a welfare benefit to survive it has to be universal so I think the universal principle and use is really important for health (and education) and ideally I'd expand it to other sectors.

I agree! UBI and universal health care.

That is the welfare state of the future.

[Sheilbh]

oh no

[Valmy]

oh no

We are comrades in the struggle
that goes on across the earth!
Comrades in the struggle, brother, you and I!
In the cause of justice brother!
We must fight for all we're worth!

[Tamas]

In Hungary the ongoing drift (as much as it have happened as I am not sure how much) was the other way around: decline of state healthcare pushing those who can afford it to private.