Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Valmy]

I still don't know. That could happen and is probably likely, but there is so much regional stuff going on I don't know what any of it means - also record levels of voter registration.

I still see the Tories losing seats in the South-West and Scotland and the seats they need to win to make up for that aren't "one more push" types. I'm just not sure, yet where they'll win bigger now than they did in 2017.

Also I suspect the less it looks like we'll get PM Corbyn then the more surprising results we'll get in the South because Remainer Tories can vote Lib Dem without worrying that they'll end up with Corbyn in government. The Lib Dems have been putting very good candidates deep into Remainer Tory territory Woking, Esher etc. It could be a massive mistake, but I feel like they have some reason to think something's up.

Yet you poo-poo'd my Grand Remainer Alliance straw grasping

[Sheilbh]

Yet you poo-poo'd my Grand Remainer Alliance straw grasping

But this is part of the issue: to do well the Lib Dems need the votes of Tory Remainers, to have power they need to do a deal with the Labour Party (under Corbyn). The more the Lib Dems indicate they'll do a deal with Labour, the worse they do with Tory Remainers. And the more seats they win because of Tory Remainers, the more likely they'll be in a position wher they can/have to do a deal with Corbyn.

It's a very difficult needle for Swinson to thread.

[Josquius]

I think people who knew who Corbyn was before he became leader were aware of his issues on anti-Semitism. This was raised before he was leader:
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/aug/13/jeremy-corbyn-labour-leadership-foreign-policy-antisemitism
But people didn't care, he wasn't challenged on it during that campaign enough. The biggest issues I had with Corbyn in 2015 were anti-semitism and Ireland.

It's there in the headline of the article. Corbyn isn't an anti semite. He is however very big on Palestinian rights which often leads to groups where some of the members have trouble distinguishing between Israel and Jews.

This is getting closer to the real problems with Corbyn. You see it to with the "Corbyn loves the IRA" nonsense. He gets involved with some causes that are really outside of the mainstream and is a strong believer that discussion is the way to solve problems.
He means well. As much as I'm not a fan I really believe his heart is in the right place. But like so many out on the fairly far left he is a bit naiive with it.

But that's part of it. The other side is, as you say, the complaints process. First of all this system was recommended by a respected independent barrister who said the main issue was the complaints process. She was then appointed by the Labour Party to the House of Lords and put in the shadow cabinet which, for me, raises questions about her independence in her recommendations.

How so?
Improving the complaints process is something labour want to do. There's no reason for them not to. If your goal is to design an effective complaints process I don't think it matters whether they hired an outside contractor or appointed an expert who supported the party.

This isn't just a anti semitism complaints process. It's the complaints process in general.


On labour and anti semitism:

https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-antisemitism-political-parties

The issue is that labour shouldn't have any of these views at all.

[Josquius]

I find the idea that socialists can't be bigots to be laughable, because we have many examples of left-wing bigotry to look at.  And no, this isn't about the "The Nazis were socialist" argument.  Just look at how the USSR tried to Russify all their minorities (that they didn't try to simply kill off) or how the CCP treats Tibetans and Uighurs.

The Soviets and China actually have really good official policies on minorities. Lots of stuff about giving them special treatment, setting up local ethnic provinces, protecting their culture, extra university places, exemptions from the one child law, etc...
It's only once you move away from socialism and into those regimes status as brutal dictatorships that you start getting attempts at ensuring continued control leading to genocide et al.
Contrast to far right dictatorships where even the official narrative is to wipe out the impure foreigners.

[Admiral Yi]

This is getting closer to the real problems with Corbyn. You see it to with the "Corbyn loves the IRA" nonsense. He gets involved with some causes that are really outside of the mainstream and is a strong believer that discussion is the way to solve problems.

If he's such a strong believer in discussion why does he have such a hard on for groups that preferred violence?

[Josquius]

This is getting closer to the real problems with Corbyn. You see it to with the "Corbyn loves the IRA" nonsense. He gets involved with some causes that are really outside of the mainstream and is a strong believer that discussion is the way to solve problems.

If he's such a strong believer in discussion why does he have such a hard on for groups that preferred violence?

Because talking is the way to stop violence.
See also : the good Friday agreement.

[Admiral Yi]

Because talking is the way to stop violence.
See also : the good Friday agreement.

When would the appropriate time have been to talk to Hitler, and what would have been the appropriate thing to say, in order to stop that violence?

[Maladict]

Because talking is the way to stop violence.
See also : the good Friday agreement.

When would the appropriate time have been to talk to Hitler, and what would have been the appropriate thing to say, in order to stop that violence?

First Ypres, 1914: "Adolf, they won't be expecting another frontal assault."

[Josquius]

Because talking is the way to stop violence.
See also : the good Friday agreement.

When would the appropriate time have been to talk to Hitler, and what would have been the appropriate thing to say, in order to stop that violence?

You know fine well that comparison is silly.

[Razgovory]

I find the idea that socialists can't be bigots to be laughable, because we have many examples of left-wing bigotry to look at.  And no, this isn't about the "The Nazis were socialist" argument.  Just look at how the USSR tried to Russify all their minorities (that they didn't try to simply kill off) or how the CCP treats Tibetans and Uighurs.

The Soviets and China actually have really good official policies on minorities. Lots of stuff about giving them special treatment, setting up local ethnic provinces, protecting their culture, extra university places, exemptions from the one child law, etc...
It's only once you move away from socialism and into those regimes status as brutal dictatorships that you start getting attempts at ensuring continued control leading to genocide et al.
Contrast to far right dictatorships where even the official narrative is to wipe out the impure foreigners.

Well, that's baffling.  I wouldn't have picked the Soviets and the Chinese as examples of racism in socialist parties as they are too far removed from the British Labor party.  I sure as hell wouldn't try to defend the Soviets or the Chinese matters race and religion.

I agree with Damage-Per-Second that there is nothing innate about socialism to make it completely incompatible with bigotry, but I would have used socialist politicians in Western Europe from the first half of the 20th century as examples.  Not the Soviet Union.

[Habbaku]

Haven't looked deeper into this yet as it's a developing story, but... WTF?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/27/jeremy-corbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale

[Barrister]

Haven't looked deeper into this yet as it's a developing story, but... WTF?

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/nov/27/jeremy-corbyn-reveals-dossier-proving-nhs-up-for-sale

In US-UK trade deals they talked about lengthening drug patent protection.  Which you can debate the merits of as a policy, but "putting the NHS up for sale" it isn't.

[celedhring]

I find the idea that socialists can't be bigots to be laughable, because we have many examples of left-wing bigotry to look at.  And no, this isn't about the "The Nazis were socialist" argument.  Just look at how the USSR tried to Russify all their minorities (that they didn't try to simply kill off) or how the CCP treats Tibetans and Uighurs.

The Soviets and China actually have really good official policies on minorities. Lots of stuff about giving them special treatment, setting up local ethnic provinces, protecting their culture, extra university places, exemptions from the one child law, etc...
It's only once you move away from socialism and into those regimes status as brutal dictatorships that you start getting attempts at ensuring continued control leading to genocide et al.
Contrast to far right dictatorships where even the official narrative is to wipe out the impure foreigners.

Well, that's baffling.  I wouldn't have picked the Soviets and the Chinese as examples of racism in socialist parties as they are too far removed from the British Labor party.  I sure as hell wouldn't try to defend the Soviets or the Chinese matters race and religion.

I agree with Damage-Per-Second that there is nothing innate about socialism to make it completely incompatible with bigotry, but I would have used socialist politicians in Western Europe from the first half of the 20th century as examples.  Not the Soviet Union.

Well, its dps who mentioned the soviets  Anyway, the most authoritarian examples of an ideology is the first place where one is likely to find bigotry. And yes, the SU, like in many things, had officially a bunch of good policies in respect to minorities that were there for propaganda purposes and not adhered much to, in reality.

Anyway, left wing parties aren't immune to bigotry. Much of the populist left is antiglobalisation, and from there it is a relatively short trip to nativism and antisemitism. That said, so far I have only witnessed it on the very fringes.

[Sheilbh]

It's there in the headline of the article. Corbyn isn't an anti semite. He is however very big on Palestinian rights which often leads to groups where some of the members have trouble distinguishing between Israel and Jews.

Right so as I said he just might not care about sharing a stage with and platforming anti-semites because he agrees with them on Palestinian rights. You can fully support Palestinian rights and not invite a man who accused Jews of killing children for their blood onto a stage. I think if you have any political issue that leads to you hanging out with and tolerating racists then you probably can't say you're a life-long anti-racist.

It's like if Boris Johnson spent years hosting the KKK and the Le Pen family. But he isn't racist, they're just all very big on Euroscepticism.

This is getting closer to the real problems with Corbyn. You see it to with the "Corbyn loves the IRA" nonsense. He gets involved with some causes that are really outside of the mainstream and is a strong believer that discussion is the way to solve problems.
He means well. As much as I'm not a fan I really believe his heart is in the right place. But like so many out on the fairly far left he is a bit naiive with it.

He voted every against every peace agreement or negotiations during the Troubles. The story is that Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness had to convince him and John McDonnell to support the Good Friday Agreement.

And if you want to serve peace and have discussions - then you should also meet the other side and the men of peace.

It's a bit like the photo of him arrested at that anti-apartheid protest. He was anti-apartheid. So was the rest of the Labour party and union movement (and had been for decades). The difference is the Labour party and unions backed the ANC whose slogan at that point was "one man, one vote". Corbyn in that photo had been attending and generally supported an extremist splinter group from the ANC whose slogan was "one settler, one bullet".

He's a very English archetype the milquetoast, middle class radical who vicariously lives the struggle and is careless with other people's lives.

How so?
Improving the complaints process is something labour want to do. There's no reason for them not to. If your goal is to design an effective complaints process I don't think it matters whether they hired an outside contractor or appointed an expert who supported the party.

I mean that report was on anti-semitism. The reason you sppoint someone who is external and independent is so their findings are credible. That's undermined if they then accept a political appointment from the party they're reporting on.

It's like if the Tories appoint someone to do their Islamophobia inquiry and they conclude there's no fundamental issue, but some people use Islamophobic tropes and the Tories need to be clear that's unacceptable and update their complaints procedure. The very next week that person's put in the House of Lords and appointed to the cabinet. It's not great and I used to be a big fan of Shami Chakrabarti so it was very disappointing.

The issue is that labour shouldn't have any of these views at all.

No party should have these views in them. Labour didn't until Corbyn became leader and he has equivocated on what anti-semitism is, he can't just condemn it he always says that he "condemns all racism" (which is like being told to apologise for smacking your brother and saying "I'm sorry for all violence"), he struggles to apologise for it. Numerous members of staff have resigned and gone to the Equalities and Human Rights Commission because of how they were seeing complaints about anti-semitism being handled - it wasn't a general issue they complained about.

Though there is evidence it's a wider issue. The Labour leadership also stopped in to stop David Prescott (John Prescott's son, who works for the leadership) being suspended from the party after allegations were made that he was sexually harassing female students who were volunteering at HQ.

On the Andrew Neil interviews - apparently they haven't agreed a time with Johnson yet. Swinson and Farage are next. There are rumours Johnson's trying to back out and counter-rumours that they might just use the slot for Andrew Neil to ask the questions he had for Johnson to a group of experts and fact checkers

YouGov's MRP is out tonight

[Admiral Yi]

You know fine well that comparison is silly.

No I don't.  You asserted an absolute.  Discussion is the way to end violence.