Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Richard Hakluyt]

I agree with Tamas; let's keep it polite and hear what Agelastus has to say. If MPs, for example, had listened to their constituents in previous years then this whole clusterfuck may have been avoided.

[garbon]

Alright, I'll await this brilliant reply.

[The Larch]

John Oliver summarizes the insanity of Brexit: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HaBQfSAVt0s

The part when the flower trader is interviewed is very revealing. The guy admits that Brexit completely fucks up his business and in consequence his very own life, yet he voted Leave because he didn't really think deeply about the consequences.

One can argue that, at the moment of the Brexit referendum nobody (or very few people) aimed for a no-deal hard Brexit, and Leavers were selling a fantasy of unicorns and rainbows in which the UK would remain in the common market and/or customs union, so voters were basically duped into believing that having the cake and eating it was a realistic possibility.

[Tamas]

having the cake and eating it was a realistic possibility.

It is now 40 days until Brexit, and apart from ardent Remainers and the Prime Minister (plus those few who dare support her publicly), every other MP is still selling that. Including the Labour party with their "A customs union" utter bullcrap.

[celedhring]

The whole "pain now in order to get better later" only works if people are conscious of that when making the decision, and that was absolutely not the case in the referendum, imho, where the mainstream Brexit campaign sold just cakes and sweets.

[The Larch]

The whole "pain now in order to get better later" only works if people are conscious of that when making the decision, and that was absolutely not the case in the referendum, imho, where the mainstream Brexit campaign sold just cakes and sweets.

And the "get better later" part needs a really fucking strong case for it, because for what is being seen it's also a complete fantasy.

[Tamas]

The whole "pain now in order to get better later" only works if people are conscious of that when making the decision, and that was absolutely not the case in the referendum, imho, where the mainstream Brexit campaign sold just cakes and sweets.

And the "get better later" part needs a really fucking strong case for it, because for what is being seen it's also a complete fantasy.

Well the Eastern European immigrants are already being replaced by Indians so one of the main reasons for the Leave victory is being resolved even without actually having left yet.

[dps]

....

Or I could point out that accepting some suffering now for a better future for your people is a perfectly acceptable position to hold even if you, personally, do not believe that this will be the case.
......

Is it?

Have you set aside money for retirement, or indeed forgone current spending to save up for a larger purchase or vacation?  If your answer is "yes", then your own behavior reveals that you agree with the concept, even if you don't agree that it applies to Brexit.

[garbon]

....

Or I could point out that accepting some suffering now for a better future for your people is a perfectly acceptable position to hold even if you, personally, do not believe that this will be the case.
......

Is it?

Have you set aside money for retirement, or indeed forgone current spending to save up for a larger purchase or vacation?  If your answer is "yes", then your own behavior reveals that you agree with the concept, even if you don't agree that it applies to Brexit.

We have very different definitions of 'suffering'.

[Tamas]

Why? You suffer now unemployment and a recession, for the long-term benefit of a diminished economy and severed ties from the richest future super-state of the planet.

[Threviel]

Well, eastern Europe might still drag the EU to shit. It's not like Poland and Hungary are countries one would want to associate closely with. So, in time brexit might be the good choice, even if that seems far-fetched.

[Richard Hakluyt]

My nominee is Germany, simply by being too good at what they do. Countries like Italy just can't hack it in the Eurozone.........it will all end in tears.

[Threviel]

Yeah, the northern states are responsible and boring and financially successful. The southern are more or less financial clowns with Greece as the clowniest of them all and France in between. That might rip the eurozone apart unless changes are introduced.

So the eastern states might fuck it up politically and the southern states financially. Especially now that a strong voice of reason (historically, not right now) is leaving the union.

[Tamas]

I think reform and moving closer into a proper union is much more likely than collapse. Despite all the posturing and the unfortunate resurgence of nationalism, pressing onwards is still a route of less resistance than trying to trigger/enact secession or to sit over a collapse due to inaction.

I think it's ought to go easier with the UK out, too. Understandibly, the landlocked nations are less worried about being chained to the continent.

[Threviel]

Sweden and the UK usually has the same views on a lot of stuff, with UK out Sweden loses a friend in the union. It also increases the weight of the southern/eastern europeans and I don't want the southern/eastern europeans to have even more to say on the future of the union. I really don't want more integration if that means that Sweden will become more like Italy, Spain or Poland. The UK leaving is most definitely a great loss for the EU as well as for the UK.