Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[alfred russel]

It would probably behoove countries to roll out the red carpet for Mr. Trump. His vanity is bigly. But it probably won't look good in hindsight. Or just sight.

[Richard Hakluyt]

She knighted Ceaucescu. How the fuck did that happen? 

Cold War ploy I imagine.  He deviated from the official Soviet line and people thought he might be a wedge to break up the Bloc.

I recall the cheers that the Romanian team got at the LA Olympics back in 1984. There had been a US-led boycott of the 1980 Moscow games so naturally the soviets boycotted the LA games. Romania ignored that ban and were bigly cheered at the opening ceremony for doing so, despite probably being worse than the USSR in terms of domestic repression at that time.

[Richard Hakluyt]

It would probably behoove countries to roll out the red carpet for Mr. Trump. His vanity is bigly. But it probably won't look good in hindsight. Or just sight.

The red carpet was rolled out for president Xi and the King of Saudi Arabia in recent years. In fact Cameron was so far up Xi's arse during his recent visit that we nearly lost him (which, in hindsight, might have been a good thing). The USA is still our friend so its a hard call to know what to do about this sort of thing; perhaps it is best to think of it in the military way, the state visit is offered to the office rather than the man 

[Josquius]

Is there some sort of state visit lite?
Like... He meets Charles but the Queen is kept securely away for all/most of the visit.
He is snubbed,  but not too much.

Alas with the current government it just isn't happening. Poor queeny

[Syt]

Simon Blackwell
‏@simonblackwell

I haven't signed the petition because I want to hear what 2 million people in the Mall shouting "Cunt!" sounds like.

[garbon]

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/31/labour-mps-duty-corbyn-whip-brexit

Labour MPs owe a duty to the country – not Corbyn's absurd three-line whip

The country that casts itself as leader of the free world has turned overnight into the global authoriser of racism, torture and climate-change denial. It was once the world's beacon of democracy and the rule of law, but now Donald Trump's executive orders challenge those constitutional fundamentals, giving comfort to dictators everywhere.

That unseemly dash to be first hand-clutcher is already an embarrassment from which a tight-lipped No 10 struggles to rescue a little dignity. After all, nothing has changed since her obsequious state visit invitation – Trump is only carrying out the ban he pledged. Any claims of a "special relationship" should die on the lips, after Boris Johnson's feeble response yesterday.

This is the pivotal moment for Britain. Who are our true friends and allies, who share the most history, culture and mutual understanding? Trump's arrival asks that question with a stark new urgency: the answer is not him, not his United States. Our safest haven is the European Union. This is no time to make ourselves the vulnerable vassals of Trump's every whim, when we could stay as equals in a democratic partnership with our nearest neighbours.

Today the bill to trigger article 50 comes to the House of Commons. Here begins a national disaster, sadly worst for many Brexit voters. It is the first duty – the patriotic duty – of elected politicians to protect citizens from danger and promote their wellbeing, as they see it. Yet out of cowardice or political self-interest most will vote this week for what they think will profoundly and permanently damage their electors.

A quarter of MPs will joyfully vote us out of the EU, because these Europhobes sincerely believe this wayward self-destruction is in the national interest. But three times more MPs never supported Brexit, knowing it to be an error looking more damaging by the day. Still, they will vote for it all the same. Ignoring Edmund Burke's instruction to act as representatives and leaders, instead they will cravenly follow what a small majority thought one day in June.

They "respect" the result of the referendum, they repeat nervously. Why? It was a consultative vote that failed to define Brexit on what terms, with what sacrifices or at what price. So foolishly certain were both main parties that they would swing a remain result, they agreed a referendum without setting a threshold beyond a bare majority. They added no mechanism for agreeing an unknowable Brexit deal at the end of negotiations. MPs should now salvage and repair some of that negligence.

Amendments put forward by Labour and others would offer some protection from the prime minister's rock-hard Brexit. Labour's amendments call for resident EU nationals to stay: embracing them warmly would be the right rebuke to Trump. Parliament should get regular updates and a vote on the final deal before it's set in concrete by the European parliament. How ominous if May throws out amendments protecting workers' rights and anti-tax evasion laws. One essential amendment requires unimpeded tariff-free access to the single market. All these must be red lines for pro-European MPs of all parties, before they press the trigger.

But Jeremy Corbyn has three-line whipped his MPs to vote for article 50, willy nilly, rendering these amendments pointless. The staggering ineptitude of Labour's approach has fragmented the party along new lines, with remain- v Brexit-voting seats. What a dismal spectacle to see life-long pro-Europeans in Brexit-voting constituencies crumpling to "respect the will of the people" for fear of losing their seats. Those who rebel are virtually all in remain seats, where that "respect" is simpler.

Labour MPs caught in that dilemma plead their working-class voters' indignation at immigration, suppressed wages, over-run public services – even though many of these seats have few migrants: relatively few are like the much-quoted Boston or Barking. These MPs defend themselves by sneering at "metropolitans" who, they say, don't understand north-eastern or Midland seats.

I would reply to them that they have a deeper duty to their voters than obeying how they voted that day. MPs' duty is to lead and defend their people from Brexit's reduced living standards. Make the case. Stand by what you believe and explain why Brexit will harm them, their children and their grandchildren. Talk about why a stable alliance in which we have an equal voice is stronger than the haphazard chance of trade deals with the likes of US, China or the Gulf – none the size of our EU trade.

Nor is this primarily a class question: the old are more to blame for Brexit. But as older cohorts drop off the perch, Labour MPs should stand up for the new young voters reaching the register. They say economics can't win the EU argument alone – though if brutal Brexit predictions turn horribly real, that will change. If emotional patriotism matters most, then our sovereignty is safer with Europe, not demeaning our sovereign in a golden carriage ride down the Mall with Trump. Our status in the world is stronger as a leading EU member than alone, striking dishonourable deals with dictators. Shunning Trump and re-embracing Europe best reflects British values, who we are, what we believe and what binds us to democracies like ours: it's not too late.

Looked at cynically, Labour has nothing to lose by standing up for what virtually all Labour MPs believe on the EU, as do two-thirds of Labour voters. Electorally Labour is in freefall, 14 points behind in the polls, not even best trusted on the NHS: shocking that there's any possibility of losing byelections in Stoke-on-Trent and Copeland.

On this great issue of our generation, Labour has been incoherently, embarrassingly irrelevant. If we pro-Europeans are wrong, if Brexit is a triumphant success, trade blossoms, growth booms and Britain stands tall alone, Labour is done for anyway. May will be prime minister for as long as she wants, Tories in power beyond the blue horizon.

Labour MPs in Brexit seats may lose their seats anyway, unless the party comes to its senses soon. They would earn more respect from constituents by taking a principled stand, explaining why they are determined to protect them from a bad Brexit. What have they to lose? Voters will spot the dishonest prevarication if MPs put clinging to their seats first. Labour has drafted wise safeguarding amendments. Labour MPs must fight for them. Certainly they must reject the absurdity of being whipped by life-long rebel Corbyn.

[Tamas]

Yeah.

I'd like to think, if I was an MP, I would have the moral, (and financial) courage to vote based on my belief on what is right for the country.

This is the most important vote of their lives. It will define the fate of their country for at least a generation.

[mongers]

Yeah.

I'd like to think, if I was an MP, I would have the moral, (and financial) courage to vote based on my belief on what is right for the country.

This is the most important vote of their lives. It will define the fate of their country for at least a generation.

Ken Clarke is putting on a Sterling effort in the debate right now:

Clarke: "New tariffs, new barriers, new customs procedures between UK and the biggest market in the world" - you're bound to weaken econ

....

Clarke: 'You follow the rabbit down the hole and turn up in a trade wonderland with nice men like Trump & Erdogan, Hatter having tea party'

...

Clarke quotes Burke: "Your representative owes you..his judgment; and he betrays, instead of serving you, if he sacrifices it to your opinion"

[celedhring]

Always loved that quote from Burke. We lack these kind of lawmakers nowadays - or maybe they don't get elected and it's ultimately our fault.

[Tamas]

I like the rabbit hole one too

[celedhring]

I like the rabbit hole one too

Yeah, that one is brilliant by itself. I wish the Tory Party was like this Clarke fella.

[mongers]

I like the rabbit hole one too

Yeah, that one is brilliant by itself. I wish the Tory Party was like this Clarke fella.

Worth catching later this evening on BBC parliament channel if you have a spare 5-10 minutes.

[Richard Hakluyt]

Ken Clarke is widely regarded as the best Prime Minister we never had.

[Tamas]

I like the rabbit hole one too

Yeah, that one is brilliant by itself. I wish the Tory Party was like this Clarke fella.

Worth catching later this evening on BBC parliament channel if you have a spare 5-10 minutes.

It's here now as well: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/uk-politics-38794587

[Tamas]

We won't decide terms of Brexit. The terms of Brexit will be decided by the other 27 EU states, MP Geraint Davies says.