Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Zanza]

France would just not take them back and they don't want to go back, so putting them back on the boat means you leave them to the high seas, which ends with you having a humanitarian disaster on your shores. If it was as easy as putting them back on boats, the whole refugee crisis would not exist. But Europeans have enough empathy left not to do that. I remember a case in South East Asia a few years ago where refugees from Myanmar starved on their boats because Thailand would not allow them to land.

[Sheilbh]

There'd also be a humanitarian disaster on France's shores caused by them waving through people to a country the French know will reject them and then not taking them back. I think there'd be pressure from people like me on both sides.

But the most popular immigration model in the UK is Australia. I could imagine if the French didn't take them that we'd end up putting migrants on an island somewhere, like the Australians, and then deporting them to anyone else.

You're right Europeans have enough empathy not to let people starve, but sadly I think that's about it.

[Martinus]

France would just not take them back and they don't want to go back, so putting them back on the boat means you leave them to the high seas, which ends with you having a humanitarian disaster on your shores. If it was as easy as putting them back on boats, the whole refugee crisis would not exist. But Europeans have enough empathy left not to do that. I remember a case in South East Asia a few years ago where refugees from Myanmar starved on their boats because Thailand would not allow them to land.

Are you nuts? I simply can't imagine France just putting the refugees on boats for them to be left on the high seas. It's not 16th century.

[Zanza]

Sheilbh suggested that this was a realistic policy by the British. Not sure where France comes into the picture.

[Sheilbh]

Sheilbh suggested that this was a realistic policy by the British. Not sure where France comes into the picture.

It's the same scenario. France waving people through knowing Britain won't accept them is no different than Britain putting them back on a boat knowing the French won't.

[Zanza]

It's not the same scenario for two reasons that actually matter in real politics: The French just don't have to do anything and pretend nothing untoward is happening. It's traffickers and illegal immigrants, not French government which acts here. That's because the immigrants want to go to Britain. The British on the other hand would have to act in an official capacity and actually either turn the boats back or resettle the immigrants in some camps (aka Australian solution) and they would have to do so against the expressed will of the immigrants in question. Not acting is much easier than acting.

[Sheilbh]

Except that the migrants and traffickers and all associated issues are happening in France. As I say if the French dismantle the Jungle and Britain just tightens border controls: searching lorries (which happened when Sangatte was an issue) and sending out the coastguard to patrol the Channel etc.

The French don't have to do anything but do have to deal with the consequences of a few thousand migrants - in a case when the Jungle is closed - just roaming round Pas-de-Calais looking for a likely opportunity. Purely politically that area's already an FN hotbed which would cause issues. For the UK there's far fewer consequences or costs to making it more difficult to get here, or resettling people pending their application.

I just don't understand what France gets out of it given that it's not like the Balkans where there is an easy land border to cross if you let people through. Regardless the French will have to deal with however many thousand migrants who want to get into the UK. Even if they just pretend nothing is happening those people can't just keep walking. It'd be more like Izmir, with thousands of migrants waiting for a boat or a lorry, negotiating with smugglers etc.

[The Larch]

There was some discussion about the role of UK expats in other EU countries in tne Brexit debate. There was recently an article about UK pensioners in Spain on the Guardian, if someone is interested:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/brexit-threat-to-spains-secret-little-britain

'I don't want to go back with nothing': the Brexit threat to Spain's little Britain

In Spain's biggest British enclave, the EU referendum looms large over an expat Shangri-La based on bowls, beaches and high-quality free healthcare. But is there any real love for Europe there?

[Richard Hakluyt]

How do Spaniards feel about this influx Larch? Not just the Brits, but the Germans and Irish and whatnot.

[Admiral Yi]

There was some discussion about the role of UK expats in other EU countries in tne Brexit debate. There was recently an article about UK pensioners in Spain on the Guardian, if someone is interested:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/brexit-threat-to-spains-secret-little-britain

"Even now the deal is amazingly favourable: £40,000 for a basic flat; £100,000 for a very pleasant home and garden; £150,000 for a detached house with a pool."

That's really fucking cheap.

[Zoupa]

Except that the migrants and traffickers and all associated issues are happening in France. As I say if the French dismantle the Jungle and Britain just tightens border controls: searching lorries (which happened when Sangatte was an issue) and sending out the coastguard to patrol the Channel etc.

The French don't have to do anything but do have to deal with the consequences of a few thousand migrants - in a case when the Jungle is closed - just roaming round Pas-de-Calais looking for a likely opportunity. Purely politically that area's already an FN hotbed which would cause issues. For the UK there's far fewer consequences or costs to making it more difficult to get here, or resettling people pending their application.

I just don't understand what France gets out of it given that it's not like the Balkans where there is an easy land border to cross if you let people through. Regardless the French will have to deal with however many thousand migrants who want to get into the UK. Even if they just pretend nothing is happening those people can't just keep walking. It'd be more like Izmir, with thousands of migrants waiting for a boat or a lorry, negotiating with smugglers etc.

Right now the English border is physically at the Eurostar entrance in Paris. Macron is saying that the English border could move back to London. We're not going to control who wants to leave France and come into the UK for you.

Frankly I don't understand why France signed that agreement to begin with. It makes no sense geopolitically.

[The Larch]

How do Spaniards feel about this influx Larch? Not just the Brits, but the Germans and Irish and whatnot.

About the retirees? Mild annoyance because of their lack of integration and inability/unwillingness to even learn the language, I guess, but they're harmless and a net positive for those communities, I think.

[The Larch]

There was some discussion about the role of UK expats in other EU countries in tne Brexit debate. There was recently an article about UK pensioners in Spain on the Guardian, if someone is interested:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/may/27/brexit-threat-to-spains-secret-little-britain

"Even now the deal is amazingly favourable: £40,000 for a basic flat; £100,000 for a very pleasant home and garden; £150,000 for a detached house with a pool."

That's really fucking cheap.

I have no idea about the quality of those houses, but some of these kind of developments aimed at foreign buyers have been controversial in the past because of shenanigans during their construction. Shoddy materials, irregularities during the construction that end up with houses unconnected to the electric grid, sewers or main roads and the like. They're no exactly upscale residences.

[Josquius]

How often is it muttered about there actually being 2 or 3 (or more? ) times the official number of brits due to our habit of not registering?

[Sheilbh]

I have no idea about the quality of those houses, but some of these kind of developments aimed at foreign buyers have been controversial in the past because of shenanigans during their construction. Shoddy materials, irregularities during the construction that end up with houses unconnected to the electric grid, sewers or main roads and the like. They're no exactly upscale residences.

Like the big developments in Ireland.

I've already found the area I want to buy my Spanish holiday home in

I haven't read the article yet but it is a massive weirdness of our conversation on immigration that we're a massive emigrant country too. We only got net immigration in the 80s/90s and, yeah, there's lots of Brits in Spain but there's double the number in New Zealand alone. I imagine every family in the UK has a relative or family friend who's moved to Australia, the US, Canada or New Zealand. But that fact doesn't seem to play any part in the way most people talk about immigration. I suppose it's difficult to see your own country as a desirable location to live (especially if you're as miserable as we are) so there must be some sort of scam.