Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

Weird she is trying to position herself as against the "London elite" when the entire approach of her time in power was let everyone else burn if it helps the (city of) London elite.

I can't think of a single measure in the mini-budget aimed at the City of London. Could you enlighten me?

Edit: except the scrapping of the limit on bankers' bonuses.

Eh?
Her entire thing was neo liberalism.

Not sure what the decline has to do with it. There's still a £22bn market in tobacco and there's already a black market. It won't disappear and this will just create a slowly-widening gap in the market which will be filled by criminals out to make money. As noted, the black market already exists due to high taxation - HMRC estiimate it's about 20% of the size of the legal market. It will naturally grow once this measure is introduced.

As always we make the mistake of assuming that "bans" which are incapable of being effectively change people's behaviour. Where they can be enforced (e.g. smoking bans in public places) they are effective. When they can't - drug/tobacco/alcohol, they are not only ineffective but simply transfer tax money to gangs.

If there's no demand then there's little market for the criminals either. Key is keeping tobacco out of the hands of kids. Do that and the numbers will dwindle ever more.
Illegal cigarette sellers will always be a thing. Just as sellers of illegal chocolate are a thing. But the prohibition analogy just doesn't hold up, tobacco isn't as in demand as alcohol.

[Tamas]

Court maintains a school's right to be secular and not give time for prayers, Muslim teacher/columnist in Guardian outlines the two main problems: 1. why can be schools secular, even, and 2. the verdict is islamophobic:

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2024/apr/16/michaela-school-prayer-ban-muslim-teacher-religion

[Tamas]

Another reminder that Brexit consequences haven't actually started yet: https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2024/apr/17/garden-centres-in-uk-stockpile-plants-before-new-brexit-checks

Garden centres and nurseries are stockpiling plants before Brexit checks are introduced later this month, amid concerns over whether new border posts will be ready to deal with the volume of deliveries.

The Horticultural Trade Association (HTA), which represents garden retailers and growers, said many of its members had been increasing orders of plants in recent weeks, to increase stocks before the checks start on 30 April.

Suppliers on the continent have announced that they will hold back some orders for up to three weeks after the checks begin because of fears that some border control posts (BCPs) could be overwhelmed.

[Sheilbh]

Well also it's Katharine Birbalsingh's school and for all the articles praising her as "Britain's strictest headteacher" in the right wing press, she also attracts a lot of negative coverage from, say, The Guardian.

FWIW my view is that her school is more diverse and takes more free school meal pupils than average and performs really well (again, well above average) which is changing  kids' lives. But I think she'd be better served by staying off social media and not courting the press.

[Tamas]

Well also it's Katharine Birbalsingh's school and for all the articles praising her as "Britain's strictest headteacher" in the right wing press, she also attracts a lot of negative coverage from, say, The Guardian.

FWIW my view is that her school is more diverse and takes more free school meal pupils than average and performs really well (again, well above average) which is changing  kids' lives. But I think she'd be better served by staying off social media and not courting the press.

Maybe. But I am wary of religious influence of any kind spreading in a supposedly secular society, so maybe not. I know Islam is a difficult topic to approach because it is very hard to separate valid concerns about demands by a bigoted religion incompatible with modern society from racist bile since the latter disguises itself as the former, but the former still exists, and this racist controversy will be used as a guise to de-secularise society if we let it. Not because Islam/Muslims are particularly evil but because that's what always happens when a religion is given the opportunity.

[Josquius]

The Guardian article seems valid.
Its true that it does smell pretty off that you've got this school with a lot of Muslims is suddenly so committed to a French style extreme secularism where most schools in the land will push soft Christianity and nobody blinks.
Very typical of this Muskesque strain of thinking fasc. Huge defenders of progressive values...but only when they go their way.

[Sheilbh]

We're not a secular society - there's a state church which the King heads with bishops in the legislature (also faith leaders from other communities, including Muslims, in the Lords). And there's a significant number of state funded faith schools.

We're a multi-faith society. But in the same way as we have state funded faith schools (who can't discriminate and have to teach the national curriculum), I think it is legitimate to have non-discriminatory secular schools.

[Tamas]

What do you have in mind as differences between a multi-faith and a secular society? In a practical sense?

[Sheilbh]

What do you have in mind as differences between a multi-faith and a secular society? In a practical sense?

In my mind, a multi-faith society is one where faith has a formal role in society and space in the public sphere - it has a right to be there. Unless in an explicitly secular space (like this school - and that's fine) or if it would discriminate against another faith group's rights - and indeed I'd say you include secularists in interfaith dialogue/spaces. Similarly, asI say, there is state funding for faith schools - that's fine.

The other is some type of formal and legal separation which can vary from, say, the US to France.

Obviously the actual society matters so I think the UK is (or aspires to be) a multi-faith society with an incredibly secular population (I think the last census had one of the highest "no belief"/"nones" levels in the world) - so that will look and feel different from, say, the US or India which are secular societies but with lots of people who have beliefs.

[Gups]

Eh?
Her entire thing was neo liberalism.

In other words you can't find a single thing that justifies your comment.

[Gups]

quote author=Josquius link=msg=1438881 date=1713348398]
If there's no demand then there's little market for the criminals either. Key is keeping tobacco out of the hands of kids. Do that and the numbers will dwindle ever more.
Illegal cigarette sellers will always be a thing. Just as sellers of illegal chocolate are a thing. But the prohibition analogy just doesn't hold up, tobacco isn't as in demand as alcohol.

There is demand (otehrwise why make it illegal). £22bn is a massive market. The analogy is that making things illegal when theer is still demand means making criminal richer. The fatc that heroin is less in demand than cannabis doesn't mean that there is no market in heorin or that drug dealers don't make money selling heroin.

Sellers of illegal chocolate?

[Gups]

The Guardian article seems valid.
Its true that it does smell pretty off that you've got this school with a lot of Muslims is suddenly so committed to a French style extreme secularism where most schools in the land will push soft Christianity and nobody blinks.
Very typical of this Muskesque strain of thinking fasc. Huge defenders of progressive values...but only when they go their way.

What's so sudden about it? It was set up specifically as a secular school. Parents and prospective pupils were told very clearly on multiple occasions that prayer of any sort would not be allowed.

[Sheilbh]

Yeah for me it's the same as a secular parent or pupil complaining about attending a Christian or Muslim faith school. They're up front about it and as long as they teach the national curriculum and don't discriminate then it's fine.

[Josquius]

quote author=Josquius link=msg=1438881 date=1713348398]
If there's no demand then there's little market for the criminals either. Key is keeping tobacco out of the hands of kids. Do that and the numbers will dwindle ever more.
Illegal cigarette sellers will always be a thing. Just as sellers of illegal chocolate are a thing. But the prohibition analogy just doesn't hold up, tobacco isn't as in demand as alcohol.

There is demand (otehrwise why make it illegal). £22bn is a massive market. The analogy is that making things illegal when theer is still demand means making criminal richer. The fatc that heroin is less in demand than cannabis doesn't mean that there is no market in heorin or that drug dealers don't make money selling heroin.

Sellers of illegal chocolate?

There is a demand now, as there's a steady onroad of new smokers.
If we are able to drastically slash the amount of people starting smoking then soon the numbers of potential customers will dwindle.

Illegal chocolate. Counterfeit chocolate exists just as you get counterfeit anything. Then there's stuff which might be perfectly legal but it was smuggled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61810743

In other words you can't find a single thing that justifies your comment.

Everything=Can't find a single thing?
Abolishing the higher tax rate? Reversing plans to increase corporate tax?
As I say. She made no secret about her ideology. And it was to serve the elites. So its rich that she now turns around and moans about elites.

What's so sudden about it? It was set up specifically as a secular school. Parents and prospective pupils were told very clearly on multiple occasions that prayer of any sort would not be allowed.

Figure of speech.
That this one school is so secular it outright bans instances of religion just happens to be a school with a lot of Muslims whilst you don't see the same from majority Christian schools, especially given the associations of the headmaster, does smell a bit off.

[Gups]

There is a demand now, as there's a steady onroad of new smokers.
If we are able to drastically slash the amount of people starting smoking then soon the numbers of potential customers will dwindle.

Yes, because making addictive substances illegal is bound to drastically slash the number of users. What's that definition of insanity again?

Illegal chocolate. Counterfeit chocolate exists just as you get counterfeit anything. Then there's stuff which might be perfectly legal but it was smuggled.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-61810743

Everything=Can't find a single thing?
Abolishing the higher tax rate? Reversing plans to increase corporate tax?
As I say. She made no secret about her ideology. And it was to serve the elites. So its rich that she now turns around and moans about elites.

Yur approach works only if

(a) Truss had a coherent political philosophy
(b) that philosophy was neo-liberalism
(c) The definition of neo-liberalism is that it benefits the City of London and burns the rest of the UK.

As none of those things are true, you will have to find me some actual actions she took during her mercifully short time in office which were for the benefit of the City of London. If you are right, that shouldn't be too difficult since she published a mini-budget which was chock full of measures.