Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Valmy]

If Korea is anything like Japan then yeah. Really not comparable to British tabloids.
From what I gather their journalists put forward a very respectable polite face, all about building connections with insiders and getting the scoop in that way - and then once it's out that some pop star has a boyfriend thus has deemed herself a transgressor against their societally expected roles, then the horror can begin.

Certainly couldn't imagine the paparazzi operating in Japan in the way they do here. Stalking the innocent and famous and causing a scene everywhere.

I just want to say that even by western sexist patriarchal standards, the extent that women in Japan seem to get shit for simply having sex with men is bizarre. At least the ones I hear about every once in a while are single so...what is the issue Japan?

But I am hardly plugged in to all the issues involved and I don't speak Japanese so I may not be fully understanding what is going on 

[Sheilbh]

As far as inunderstand it korea has a toxic celebrity reporting culture but I don't think it extends beyond that. Of course once something does break then it's all shame, scandal, and over reaction, but that's an asian thing . The dogged search isn't there.

Maybe. The number of Presidents who've been prosecuted kind of suggests they're doing something dogged. I assumed the press was uncovering those scandals but it may be coming from/driven by prosecutors (which makes it sound a little more politicised).

As for uk papers/news it's been my impression that tabloids drive the competition. The, at times, scummy news gets the views so the other media goes hard too. Everyone wants the new scoop. And  you do what you must to get it. Tap phones? Sure why not. Celebrories not doing anyhthing interesting? Nope, how about the royals? Nah. Politicians have to be up to something then. Its the drive for the scoop. But I could be mistaken.

Maybe. I don't think the tabloids drive other papers - just among themselves. I think the competition is separately amongst tabloids and amongst broadsheets - but people move between them all. But they're all looking for scoops, but what that looks like is different for a tabloid v a broadsheet. And as I say I don't know if the press is part of why there's been so many stories of abuse and harassment.

On phone hacking, the only papers who have been found to have done phone hacking (and it is a very fancy term for dialling into someone's voicemail and entering the default password, normally 0000) were the tabloids (Mirror, Sun, Express). I think it's likely the Mail did it. But it wasn't done by any of the broadsheets. But that was a period of pretty intense competition among the tabloids and it was also the first wave of celebrity culture (and the royals are just celebrity culture in ermine). I wonder about the drivers because that wasn't a time of big political stories - in part because it was New Labour in their pomp.

I think with the exception of the royals (most of the time - except for the papers that don't care), there isn't much deference. Arguably that's the point of the royals - all the symbolic "respect the office" stuff gets taken out of day to day politics. I think that might be good at uncovering scandals, but on other issues generates more heat than light. And that combination can lead them straight to the heart of the peripheral. I know I bang on about it but the press conference during following a change in the lockdown rules, where the press spent the entire time doing "gotcha" questions on whether a scotch egg in a pub was a "substantial meal" was a particular lowpoint.

Certainly couldn't imagine the paparazzi operating in Japan in the way they do here. Stalking the innocent and famous and causing a scene everywhere.

But again, like phone hacking, we're working off stereotypes from the 90s/early 00s (the courts' approach to the "right to a private and family life" has changed a lot since the Human Rights Act). The paps aren't broadly stalking the innocent and famous and causing a scene everywhere - they all talk about the "glory days". It's now normally outside events/hotels or has been arranged by the celebrities PR.

Also technology's changes - ultimately everyone in the world is always carrying a camera. Why pay for professionals to shoot candids of celebs when you can rely on the public posting it on their socials or, occasionally, selling them?  And, frankly, as the Mail Online shows - why pay for paps when you get an awful lot of readers by curating celebrities own social media accounts into articles?

[Jacob]

Korea has a massive culture of sexual harassment and exploitation in the entertainment industry. I'd be shocked if it didn't extend elsewhere.

My opinion is that humans are interested in sex and enjoy exercising the privileges of power, and that many have poor judgement and ethics.

So my assumption is that this stuff is broadly rampant in inverse proportion to the prevalence explicit cultures of openness, accountability, and consequence.

I believe 100% that to the degree there is less women who harass and exploit its limited primarily by opportunity and individual preference rather than "female nature" or some such.

Not that I'd assume that any given individual engages in such practices - most people are decent - but where institutions are set up such the those with power can silence those with less power and those who speak up face negative consequences, I absolutely believe sexual harassment is prevalent.

[Jacob]

@Valmy - the shit you hear about women idols in East Asia getting for having sex is that in those cases the girls' celebrity status is based on their fans having para-social relationships with them as idealized girlfriends. Therefore the fans feel their idol is "cheating on them" if they get a boyfriend or have sex.

[Sheilbh]

Not that I'd assume that any given individual engages in such practices - most people are decent - but where institutions are set up such the those with power can silence those with less power and those who speak up face negative consequences, I absolutely believe sexual harassment is prevalent.

Yes. Also I think if institutions are important in some way to people.

You think of issues in video game, movies, media or parliament - and all of these are places and industries a lot of people really aspire to work in, or have really strong views attached to their work. I think part of it is also about being able to take advantage of people who are really happy to ahve their foot in the door, and also others who want to protect the reputation of x institution. I think there is something dehumanising about institutions where our obligations to them can make us override or forget what we owe each other. I was thinking about this in the chat about corporations and directors, for example.

Although this case is differet. The guy was the victim of a honeypot, blackmailed and gave away personal details of his colleagues which allowed them to be targeted for a honeypot by a blackmailer. There's no harassment or abuse of power here - but there have been plenty of other stories of that in Westminster (and elsewhere).

I believe 100% that to the degree there is less women who harass and exploit its limited primarily by opportunity and individual preference rather than "female nature" or some such.

I think there are Tars out there but I don't think the massive disparity on this, or other crimes for that matter, is just opportunity and individual preference. Or necessarily to do with "female nature". I think it is to do with men though - and a lot of that may well be the social construction of men and eliminate the current patriarchal construction and it might equalise, or maybe not. I'm not sure.

[HVC]

If Korea is anything like Japan then yeah. Really not comparable to British tabloids.
From what I gather their journalists put forward a very respectable polite face, all about building connections with insiders and getting the scoop in that way - and then once it's out that some pop star has a boyfriend thus has deemed herself a transgressor against their societally expected roles, then the horror can begin.

Certainly couldn't imagine the paparazzi operating in Japan in the way they do here. Stalking the innocent and famous and causing a scene everywhere.

I just want to say that even by western sexist patriarchal standards, the extent that women in Japan seem to get shit for simply having sex with men is bizarre. At least the ones I hear about every once in a while are single so...what is the issue Japan?

But I am hardly plugged in to all the issues involved and I don't speak Japanese so I may not be fully understanding what is going on 

It goes beyond that. Even male idols are scrutinized. If you think western parasocial ties are odd, beyonce and Taylor fans have nothing on koreans. Can't date (in contracts) can't smoke, can't drink in countries with lower ages then korea. To name a few. Singers have been canceled and fired.

[Sheilbh]

And the recent suicide of a Korean actor - I think following reports of using drugs. Which, I read, is causing a bit of soul searching.

Although not sure Beyonce and Taylor are the comparisons given their power. It's more like one of those assembled girl groups maybe?

[HVC]

It's not the power, it's the rabid fan base. They spread false rumors of other bands and try other things. Some people have been poisoned. It's crazy. Both boy bands and girl bands. Solo too. Speaking of suicide there's been a few singers commit suicide too

[Jacob]

It's not the power, it's the rabid fan base. They spread false rumors of other bands and try other things. Some people have been poisoned. It's crazy. Both boy bands and girl bands. Solo too. Speaking of suicide there's been a few singers commit suicide too

The power thing is a separate thing from the rabid fan base thing. The first one is about what the people who control access to a desired career can extract from those who desire to succeed, the second one is about the weight of (unrealistic, highly demanding) expectations on the idols from their fans (and rival fans) as part of the evolution of para-social relationships and idol culture.

[HVC]

It's not the power, it's the rabid fan base. They spread false rumors of other bands and try other things. Some people have been poisoned. It's crazy. Both boy bands and girl bands. Solo too. Speaking of suicide there's been a few singers commit suicide too

The power thing is a separate thing from the rabid fan base thing. The first one is about what the people who control access to a desired career can extract from those who desire to succeed, the second one is about the weight of (unrealistic, highly demanding) expectations on the idols from their fans (and rival fans) as part of the evolution of para-social relationships and idol culture.

Sorry, I was replying to sheilbh in regards of kpop idols power in comparison  to beyonce.

The power of execs is a huge thing there, I agree. Tying into another conversation I had with Sheilbh the big story now is a female exec (wife of the owner IIRC) abusing, physically, emotionally, and sexually a boy band under her charge.

[HVC]

As an aside the youtube algorithm really got me into korean variety shows. They're exceedingly entertaining. Algorithm being what it is i also now know a bunch of gossip. So now I know about a bunch of korean singers and actors, but i never really watched them perform

[Sheilbh]

Wish I understood the parasocial thing more - need to read something about it because I think it's a big force and not just in celebrity.

[Jacob]

Wish I understood the parasocial thing more - need to read something about it because I think it's a big force and not just in celebrity.

Oh yeah, I think para-social relationships are one of the unique and and therefore potentially defining things of our era.

[Valmy]

I will say that whenever I do enjoy somebody's content on Youtube or whatever I do start to want good things to happen to them and get sad when bad things happen to them...even though I do not know this person at all. That is a psychological phenomenon I have noticed. But I guess it isn't that much different than how I feel about some of my favorite sports stars or whatever. It is just a little different because that youtuber or podcaster or whatever  is just some random person.

[Josquius]

quot
But again, like phone hacking, we're working off stereotypes from the 90s/early 00s (the courts' approach to the "right to a private and family life" has changed a lot since the Human Rights Act). The paps aren't broadly stalking the innocent and famous and causing a scene everywhere - they all talk about the "glory days". It's now normally outside events/hotels or has been arranged by the celebrities PR.

Also technology's changes - ultimately everyone in the world is always carrying a camera. Why pay for professionals to shoot candids of celebs when you can rely on the public posting it on their socials or, occasionally, selling them?  And, frankly, as the Mail Online shows - why pay for paps when you get an awful lot of readers by curating celebrities own social media accounts into articles?

True I do get the impression British paps aren't what they once were. The everyone having a camera now thing has changed a lot. A real area where i can feel my age - I was shocked when visiting Amsterdam for instance that the red light districts windows are now empty.

With the Japanese though it's no stereotype to say they've this big cultural aversion to making a fuss.


As well as the parasocial relationship thing in Japan you've also got the cultural outlook on wrong doing at play.
The usual way it's put is in the west you don't do wrong because "god" will punish you (even in irreligious times this idea that a higher power is a threat of punishment, even if it's the government, holds).
In Japan meanwhile the outlook is more don't do wrong because the community will punish you. It's basically a sort of collective duty to give transgressors enormous shit. Cancelling to the nth degree dating back centuries.

Incidentally I again have to recommend the anime oshi no ko for a great insight into Japanese celebrity culture. And a entertaining supernatural tinted mystery in its own right.