Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

[Josquius]

A "six figure salarly" does not mean what it used to mean and especially when the first number in that six figures starts with a 1.

It doesn't mean you're filthy rich.
It does mean you're more than comfortable and wouldnt really be hurt by losing a thousand a month though you would notice it.

[Sheilbh]

I thought March 19 would be the more important date for you Sheilbh.

What's March 19?

Separately I always find this interesting but ONS projection is that UK population will hit 70 million in 2026 (up from 67 million at the last census in 2021). About 90% of that will be from immigration with the remaining 10% being higher births than deaths.

I am fully aware I'm now basiclly just Tamas-baiting.

I do always think it's one of the stronger arguments for a national ID system is that generally speaking, we don't really know how many people are living in the country or where they are I've mentioned it before but in the Brexit debate the ONS assumption that was reported everywhere was that there were 3 million other EU citizens living in the UK, it became the name of the advocacy group for their rights The 3 Million. Come to the settlement scheme after Brexit where EU citizens can register in order to preserve their rights to live in the UK and there were 6 million successful applications. Which is not a small underestimate.

It's also the reason why we still do censuses. Many European countries don't, because they have relatively current, dynamic data on who is living there. The UK doesn't so we do a census every ten years (and there are calls to move it to every 5 years) which is then used for everything - projections for local authorities' budgets, projections for public services demands in different regions, working out parliamentary constituencies etc are all derived from census results because we don't actually know how many people live here.

Similarly I recently discovered that the ONS immigration statistics is basically still based on random surveys at points of entry - again because there's no registration system as is relatively normal in most of Europe.

Also makes me think of Robert Colville's great piece and theory that in the modern world state capacity is basically database management. It's which databases can talk to each other - databases we already have tend to be the basis of more successful policies, if it involves building something new (either a database or a connection between them) they tend to be a shitshow. And the UK is relatively lax.

[Zanza]

How would a national ID system change that? Most of the gap between projection and census here is from foreigners who do not register moving away.

Incidentally, the first letter you get a few days after being born in Germany is your tax ID, which you keep until death. However for inexplicable reasons that number is only used for taxes, not for everything.

[HVC]

A "six figure salarly" does not mean what it used to mean and especially when the first number in that six figures starts with a 1.

It doesn't mean you're filthy rich.
It does mean you're more than comfortable and wouldnt really be hurt by losing a thousand a month though you would notice it.

Depends where you live.

[Sheilbh]

How would a national ID system change that? Most of the gap between projection and census here is from foreigners who do not register moving away.

I think countries like, I want to say Finland and the Baltics and some others in Europe, have moved away from censuse because they think they've got a relatively accurate and current national ID register (plus local registration).

Incidentally, the first letter you get a few days after being born in Germany is your tax ID, which you keep until death. However for inexplicable reasons that number is only used for taxes, not for everything.

We've got something similar - though you get it when you're 16 - with your National Insurance card. For some reason everyone has that number memorised despite the fact that you literally only need it when you change jobs.

I think it's because you just randomly get it when you're 16 and it's a card so it feels important.

[The Brain]

So everyone in the UK gets a National Insurance number? How is that not a national ID system?

[Sheilbh]

So everyone in the UK gets a National Insurance number? How is that not a national ID system?

It does nothing It's not proof of ID and has nothing to do with your ID. It basically looks like this:


I feel like it used to be more important. Part of the story of Jeremy Thorpe trying to get someone to murder his ex lover, Norman Scott, was that he for some reason still had Scott's National Insurance card and either wouldn't send it back or wouldn't help him get a new one. Scott felt this made his life very difficult and was sending letters to everyone accusing Thorpe of stealing it and drawing more and more attention to the fact that they used to be a couple.

Looking back, that's one of the more baffling aspects of the Thorpe-Scott story because it's hard to imagine why someone's National Insurance card mattered.

[Zanza]

How would a national ID system change that? Most of the gap between projection and census here is from foreigners who do not register moving away.

I think countries like, I want to say Finland and the Baltics and some others in Europe, have moved away from censuse because they think they've got a relatively accurate and current national ID register (plus local registration).

Germany thought so too until it did a census.

[The Brain]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

[Zanza]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

All relevant people have a coat of arms that goes back to William the Conqueror. The rest is peasant rabble and their names hardly matter.

[The Brain]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

All relevant people have a coat of arms that goes back to William the Conqueror. The rest is peasant rabble and their names hardly matter.

Too true.

[Sheilbh]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

I always use my passport because I can't drive, but normally driving license. But you don't need to prove your ID much. I feel like the last time - apart from taking a flight - was probably when I bought my flat/got a mortgage (this is also a sign of my age ).

Now that the government has mandated photo ID for voting you can get a free voter ID card on request. But I don't think it's good for anything else.

[The Brain]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

I always use my passport because I can't drive, but normally driving license. But you don't need to prove your ID much. I feel like the last time - apart from taking a flight - was probably when I bought my flat/got a mortgage (this is also a sign of my age ).

Now that the government has mandated photo ID for voting you can get a free voter ID card on request. But I don't think it's good for anything else.

How is fraud and similar kept in reasonable check (if it is)?

[Josquius]

How do people in the UK typically prove their ID?

With great difficulty.
You generally need a utility bill... But to get your name on a utility you need to prove your ID.
My gf had an absolute nightmare getting a bank account when she moved over.

And fraud isn't kept in check.
It's an easy solution to illegal immigration too.
But that'd be too easy.

[garbon]

So everyone in the UK gets a National Insurance number? How is that not a national ID system?

Yes. I got mine when I moved here.