Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

Started by Josquius, February 20, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

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How would you vote on Britain remaining in the EU?

British- Remain
12 (12%)
British - Leave
7 (7%)
Other European - Remain
21 (21%)
Other European - Leave
6 (6%)
ROTW - Remain
34 (34%)
ROTW - Leave
20 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 98

Gups

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 23, 2022, 10:11:02 AMYou need to start seeding more of your immigrants into Scotland--they will have no Scottish cultural identification and will dilute the independence vote, since they will be more likely to favor being in a larger union that has more economic opportunities.

Speaking of which wasn't there some scheme to accept Hong Kong expats? Set up New Hong Kong somewhere in Scotland.

Surely tehy've suffered enough.

HVC

In the immortal words of the greatest and most famous Scotsman:  "Damn Scott's, the ruined Scotland" 
Being lazy is bad; unless you still get what you want, then it's called "patience".
Hubris must be punished. Severely.

Josquius

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 23, 2022, 10:11:02 AMYou need to start seeding more of your immigrants into Scotland--they will have no Scottish cultural identification and will dilute the independence vote, since they will be more likely to favor being in a larger union that has more economic opportunities.



This is a big part of the upsurge in support for Scottish independence in the past few years.
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garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

celedhring

#23104
Quote from: Sheilbh on November 23, 2022, 07:30:30 AMIt's a huge challenge for her. She's come under a lot of pressure from the SNP fundamentalist wing because her approach is perceived as too incremental. Part of the reason Alex Salmond set up a (so far failed) rival party was to push for a more aggressive approach.

Her current line seems to be that they'll turn the 2024 election into a referendum by proxy (a bit like Johnson in 2019). They're going to hold a special party conference on how to do that/what approach to take - I think possibly to buy her time from attacks by the fundamentalist wing. But I think there's a risk for the SNP that - as in Catalonia I think - it splits the independence movement. The SNP have always had a fundamentalist/gradualist divide and this might force that into the open. And it'll be interesting to see if they can balance that to keep power in the Scottish Parliament which is their current source of legitimacy for claiming a referendum.

My suspicion is the SNP trying to turn it into a default referendum will play into Labour's hands.

Our nationalists tried the "referendum by proxy" in 2015, which was a bit of a failure for them. They lost the "popular vote" and for a moment it seemed the whole thing would just die there - the talks for a pro-indy government nearly collapsed. However, the whole referendum setup ended up delivering many radical pro-indy MPs (since many pro-indy moderates refused to run with that platform), which was imho a key contributor to shit hitting the fan.  Ultimately we had a vicious circle were as things got more and more heated, the moderates would jump off ship, which gave the fundies even more influence.

I'm not clued enough into Scottish politics, but I suspect that what might spare Scotland is the lack of the toxic competition between the two main Catalan separatist parties, who jockeyed to show up each other as the "traitor" in front of their increasingly radicalized bases and this was a key contributor to the escalation of 2017.

Sheilbh

Quote from: celedhring on November 23, 2022, 01:30:22 PMOur nationalists tried the "referendum by proxy" in 2015, which was a bit of a failure for them. They lost the "popular vote" and for a moment it seemed the whole thing would go off tracks. The talks for a pro-indy government nearly collapsed, but the whole referendum setup ended up delivering many radical pro-indy MPs, which led to 2017.
Yeah I wonder if another difference here is that there was a referendum relatively recently, and not by proxy. Right now, according to the polls, only a third of voters want a referendum in the next few years and generally the polls haven't really shifted from the 2014 result. So the number of people who vote SNP and want independence is higher than the people who desperately want a referendum now, which I think is relevant - and why I think it might hurt the SNP and help Scottish Labour if they spend the next two years focusing on constitutional issues to avoid a party split.

QuoteI'm not clued enough into Scottish politics, but I suspect that what might spare Scotland is the lack of the toxic competition between the two main Catalan separatist parties, who jockeyed to show up each other as the "traitor" in front of their increasingly radicalized bases and this led to the escalation of 2017.
In Scotland, the Greens also support independence and Alex Salmond has set up Alba to be more aggressive on independence and push the SNP. But, despite being an SNP former First Minister and the man who led them to the 2014 referendum, Salmond is a very toxic figure - he was charged with (and acquitted) of 14 charges including rape and sexual assault. He alleged lots of misconduct by the SNP, including Sturgeon herself, in how they handled complaints about his behaviour and won compensation from them - but is not a popular unifying figure within the nationalist community.

Also so far the MPs and MSPs who have joined his new party have done so because they either have personal loyalties from when he was SNP leader or are "gender critical" and have been kicked out of the SNP. So I think what you're saying could happen in Scotland - but I think it's not going to happen if the alternative nationalist party is led by Alex Salmond.

I think it is very possible that there's a split in the next ten years or so between those who will push for UDI and those who are committed to separation through constitutional means.
Let's bomb Russia!

OttoVonBismarck

I didn't follow all the stuff mega-closely, but at least my memory is we were promised the last referendum would be a "once in a generation thing", I don't remember it being suggested they'd run it again in a few years. Now, obviously they are using Brexit as the pretext to justify that, but I think there's a valid argument to be made that voting on separatism every few years is not proper or good.

Sheilbh

Quote from: OttoVonBismarck on November 23, 2022, 01:55:45 PMI didn't follow all the stuff mega-closely, but at least my memory is we were promised the last referendum would be a "once in a generation thing", I don't remember it being suggested they'd run it again in a few years. Now, obviously they are using Brexit as the pretext to justify that, but I think there's a valid argument to be made that voting on separatism every few years is not proper or good.
Yeah and there is an analogy with Brexiter behaviour on this because you're right. It was positioned by everyone in 2014 as a once in a generation thing. In 2015 Nicola Sturgeon's position was that there shouldn't be another referendum really unless there was a year's worth of opinion polls with support for independence well over 50% (around 60%, say) - so it's a confirmatory referendum of established public opinion.

That hasn't happened - the only time when "yes" has consistently led in the polls was during covid:


But Sturgeon is a nationalist, she believes in independence - and she's also under pressure from the fundamentalist wing of the SNP where that is the only issue that matters so she has shifted. Their argument now is that Brexit represents a material change in the terms of the union/UK's constitutional arrangement which justifies a new vote and that they have a democratic mandate because pro-independence parties have won a majority in the Scottish Parliament. I think there's something to that, though I'd note that they pro-independence parties did not win a majority of the vote in 2021 when they explicitly campaigned on it as a mandate for a referendum, while the unionist parties did.

The UK government's position is that there'll only be a referendum after a "consistent" lead for "yes" in the polls - which I think is broadly Labour's view too. So the unionist parties are more open to a referendum than Sturgeon was in 2015, and Sturgeon's position to justify a referendum is a mirror image of what the Tories did over Brexit (win a majority) :lol:
Let's bomb Russia!

celedhring

Quote from: Sheilbh on November 23, 2022, 01:42:11 PM
Quote from: celedhring on November 23, 2022, 01:30:22 PMOur nationalists tried the "referendum by proxy" in 2015, which was a bit of a failure for them. They lost the "popular vote" and for a moment it seemed the whole thing would go off tracks. The talks for a pro-indy government nearly collapsed, but the whole referendum setup ended up delivering many radical pro-indy MPs, which led to 2017.
Yeah I wonder if another difference here is that there was a referendum relatively recently, and not by proxy. Right now, according to the polls, only a third of voters want a referendum in the next few years and generally the polls haven't really shifted from the 2014 result. So the number of people who vote SNP and want independence is higher than the people who desperately want a referendum now, which I think is relevant - and why I think it might hurt the SNP and help Scottish Labour if they spend the next two years focusing on constitutional issues to avoid a party split.

QuoteI'm not clued enough into Scottish politics, but I suspect that what might spare Scotland is the lack of the toxic competition between the two main Catalan separatist parties, who jockeyed to show up each other as the "traitor" in front of their increasingly radicalized bases and this led to the escalation of 2017.
In Scotland, the Greens also support independence and Alex Salmond has set up Alba to be more aggressive on independence and push the SNP. But, despite being an SNP former First Minister and the man who led them to the 2014 referendum, Salmond is a very toxic figure - he was charged with (and acquitted) of 14 charges including rape and sexual assault. He alleged lots of misconduct by the SNP, including Sturgeon herself, in how they handled complaints about his behaviour and won compensation from them - but is not a popular unifying figure within the nationalist community.

Also so far the MPs and MSPs who have joined his new party have done so because they either have personal loyalties from when he was SNP leader or are "gender critical" and have been kicked out of the SNP. So I think what you're saying could happen in Scotland - but I think it's not going to happen if the alternative nationalist party is led by Alex Salmond.

I think it is very possible that there's a split in the next ten years or so between those who will push for UDI and those who are committed to separation through constitutional means.

I suppose FPP would probably preclude a major split, though? Your system sort of forces big tent parties.





Sheilbh

It's definitely part of it though FPTP is only for Westminster elections - the SNP have the most "efficient" vote in Westminster. They're the single big pro-independence party so if they win 40-45% of the vote that's enough for almost a clean sweep in a Westminster election because the unionist vote is split. But there's a lot of evidence that Scottish voters are very sophisticated and there's a lot of tactical voting on the unionist side which changes depending on which bit of the voting system they're using.

The Scottish Parliament has a system a bit like Germany's with directly elected constituency MSPs and regional lists to top up and reach roughly proportional seats (also a different franchise). In part New Labour thought that PR system would mean that they'd basically always be in government with the Lib Dems and it'd be near impossible for the SNP to ever form a government :lol:

Part of the SNP's success was focusing on the Scottish Parliament while the most ambitious Scottish Labour MPs wanted to be in Blair or Brown's cabinet, and almost educating voters to get what they want out of the electoral system. In the early days they did a lot of campaigns around using your second vote for the SNP as the balancing helped them - it's now often being used against them.
Let's bomb Russia!


garbon

"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.


Sheilbh

Long piece from a series of stories in The Times about Boohoo - this isn't the first of its type and it's not unique to Boohoo or to the UK, but I think the stories of the logistics industry is really important in the West right now because from what I understand these hubs are booming sector in lots of countries with similarly awful labour conditions.

Also comes just after Darren Jones who chairs the Business Select Committee was questioning Amazon about their policies:
https://twitter.com/PoliticsJOE_UK/status/1592513823151267840?s=20&t=apbjcrPrHJSd2sKCEkAR8Q

It's not the only issue with fast fashion or our super-convenient/easy ordering world - worker's rights in the parts of the world that manufacture what we're consuming, environmental impact of that level of churn etc. There have been books on a lot of these issues before, but they seem to be deepening - and also, perhaps, intersecting with covid in the massive increase in online shopping and our vulnerability to supply chain disruption from Chinese lockdowns:
https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/boohoo-warehouse-burnley-workers-slaves-investigation-dspflp9cj
QuoteInside the Boohoo warehouse where workers call themselves slaves
Claims of racism and sexual harassment at fast-fashion brand's Burnley depot
Billy Kenber, Senior Investigations Reporter | Tom Ball, Northern Correspondent | Video by Federica De Caria and Olivia Coles
Tuesday November 22 2022, 5.00pm, The Times

Workers at the fashion giant Boohoo are forced to walk the equivalent of a half-marathon per shift in a sweltering warehouse in which night-time temperatures can reach 32C, an undercover Times investigation has found.

Staff fulfilling online orders at the retailer's warehouse in Lancashire label themselves "slaves" and have complained of racism, sexual harassment, gruelling targets, inadequate training and ill-fitting safety equipment. The harsh conditions have led to workers collapsing in the aisles, with an ambulance called to the site once a month on average.

The British company, which enjoys sales of nearly £2 billion a year, spends millions of pounds on celebrity endorsers including Kourtney Kardashian and has sought to burnish its eco-friendly, ethical credentials since a 2020 scandal over the illegally low wages of some suppliers in Leicester. In response, Boohoo pledged that year to clean up its supply chain, subsequently cutting ties with hundreds of manufacturers.

In the run-up to Black Friday this week, one of the biggest shopping days of the year, our investigation raises new concerns about the workplace conditions endured by people directly employed by the company:
• An undercover reporter who spent a month as a picker at Boohoo's largely windowless distribution warehouse in Burnley in August and September recorded temperatures of up to 32C during a night shift at a time when the outside temperature was just 19C.
• The reporter walked up to 13 miles a shift, more than three times the average amount the company has previously claimed staff cover.
• Staff complained they are treated as "fodder", with managers timing their lavatory breaks and no allowances made for injuries they said they had suffered as a result of the manual work.
• Pakistani workers were reportedly told by a white marshal to work in the hottest area of the warehouse while white staff were sent to a cooler area.
• Workers also complained of instances of sexual harassment. In one case, an alleged victim of sexual assault who reported the incident was accused by a manager of lying. A gagging order prevents her from discussing what happened, The Times has learnt.


Work at a Boohoo warehouse is grinding, physically demanding and monotonous, as a reporter from The Times discovered when he spent a month working undercover as a picker earlier this year.

The warehouse, an aircraft hangar-sized facility on the outskirts of Burnley, is a far cry from the glamorous models and celebrity social media posts touting Boohoo's wares.

It is here that the orders for £3 T-shirts and £4 dresses are fulfilled by low-paid staff working through the night in the rush to fulfil the 200,000 parcels Boohoo ships each day.

Employees at the warehouse are paid £11 an hour for shifts of up to 12 hours during which they pick items ordered by customers from miles and miles of shelving across several floors.

They are constantly monitored via scanning devices worn on the arm which instruct workers where to go for the next item. After an initial training period, they are expected to meet a target of 130 items an hour — more than two a minute — even though this can include items several aisles away.

The upper floors of the warehouse are notoriously hot, with no outside ventilation or air conditioning. An undercover reporter working at night consistently recorded temperatures of above 30C, with a maximum of 32C.

Although there is no legal limit on workplace temperatures, the GMB trade union is campaigning for a safe maximum of 25C. Staff at the warehouse said temperatures had been even higher during summer heatwaves, with one worker collapsing in the aisles because of the heat last year.

Justin Madders, Labour's shadow minister for employment rights and protections, said: "These shocking revelations must be a wake-up call for ministers. The government has repeatedly failed to deliver their promised Employment Bill to tackle conditions in warehouses run like Victorian workhouses."

He said there needed to be "urgent guidance for safe indoor working temperatures".

Managers acknowledged the extreme heat, with one describing it as a "sweatbox", but said staff were still expected to meet their targets.

In one exchange, a manager briefing the night shift said: "I'm standing here and I'm not moving and already I'm dripping with sweat."


He was challenged by a worker who said: "Then give us extra breaks".

"No, no extra breaks," the manager said. "I get it, it is hot. But we still have to perform."


A former member of staff who worked in the warehouse's control room said the heat made conditions "unbearable" for pickers. "I don't know how anyone puts up with it. It was absolutely atrocious because there was no air conditioning," he said. The company said a water fountain was available on every floor with no limits on how often employees could use it.

The role of picker undertaken by the undercover reporter involves rushing around the aisles collecting items for posting at the direction of a bulky black device which must be strapped to the wrist.

The devices, encrusted with dirt and grime from previous users, direct where the next item can be found and allows managers to monitor staff at all times. Workers described their targets as "extortionate" and "impossible".

One worker described how he had nearly run into a manager with his trolley as he turned a corner because he was "pushing myself to the limit" in an effort to meet his target. Another said he had never reached 130 items an hour, saying it would require running all day.

Failure to hit targets results in receiving "feedback" — being disciplined by a manager — and can ultimately result in dismissal.

"It's never good enough," one former employee said. "Even if you hit the target it's not good enough." He recounted how a manager had told him he had to "give a feedback form to somebody who was hitting the target but just not consistently enough". Others described being disciplined for chatting to colleagues, even though they were discussing a work issue.

Pickers are on their feet through their shift and the undercover reporter covered up to 13 miles in the course of 11 hours spent on the warehouse floor. This was in spite of having a target of only 70 per cent of the number of items fully trained workers are expected to hit.

Boohoo has previously claimed that pickers cover about 7.5 miles per shift and subsequently said that number had halved as a result of changes to the zones workers work in. The company said the distances covered by the undercover reporter were not representative and its data showed pickers averaged seven miles on night shifts.

Managers keep close tabs on staff. The undercover reporter was warned by trainers that even when there were no managers on the floor, "you've got two people who sit over in the other podium in the other chamber whose only job is to make sure you lot are doing your job".

Although the reporter was advised he was free to take one or two lavatory breaks during a 12-hour shift, several workers have complained that senior staff timed the length of these visits. One, who suffers a medical problem that meant she needed to make increased trips to the lavatory, said she was asked in an intimidating way about how long she'd been there.


The undercover reporter was told he had been off the warehouse floor for 15 minutes when he went to the lavatory and to get water when in fact he had been away for half that time.

Boohoo said it was standard practice for employers to monitor breaks but said its policy was hardly ever enforced and denied timing lavatory visits.

Graffiti drawn by a worker on the floor of the warehouse with tape describes the working conditions as "prison", while in another aisle "slaves" has been written on the shelves.

The conditions contribute to a constant turnover of staff at the warehouse. One worker who had started work as a picker with 11 others three months earlier said none of the staff who had joined at the same time still worked there. He believed they had all been sacked for failing to keep up with the demands or for using their phones in the warehouse.

Boohoo claims the productivity output of its employees averages £83,700, up 13 per cent from the previous year, but pickers are paid just £11 an hour.

The physical nature of the work has led to ambulances being called out to the warehouse once a month on average over the past five years, with workers complaining of chest pain, suffering fits or convulsions and falling unconscious.

Three quarters of the 59 ambulance callouts over the period resulted in the patient being taken to hospital.

Four people fell unconscious, fainted or felt like they were about to pass out in the last financial year, with one worker recalling an incident in which a colleague had collapsed in the warehouse aisles during a heatwave in the summer of 2021.

Others have suffered injuries to their legs or shoulders that they attribute to heavy lifting, with some complaining that managers were unwilling to make any accommodations.

"This place just beats you down. Realistically we're doing average or above average and you just get told, 'No it's rubbish, it's not good enough'," one worker told The Times.

He claimed he had injured his shoulder while performing the job and was "seriously struggling with the pain" which he described as an "eight out of ten". The picker had asked to be moved to a different role but had been told he couldn't.

"I told the manager and they said there's absolutely nothing they can do," he added.

Another said they'd suffered pain from their foot and knee for months, alleging it was because of the amount of walking required during a shift. They said they had spoken to a manager and twice asked HR if allowances could be made such as an extra unpaid break to manage the pain.

"Two times I went to HR and asked them if I could have a break during my shift, which I said I would take in my own time and work extra time to cover," the worker said. "But they didn't give a s***. They said nothing — no answer. If they say we can't or something — OK. But they said nothing, no answer. Like I was a nothing."

Boohoo said it made accommodations to the duties of more than 100 colleagues who had existing medical conditions or temporary non-work related impairments but did not directly address its policy for workers who had suffered injuries at work. The company said that it took all reasonable steps to safeguard warehouse workers and suggested sitting at a desk was harmful.

While pickers are pushed to work as hard as possible, managers often spend their time sitting down and chatting. On one shift, the undercover reporter captured a video of two managers watching an international cricket match on a mobile phone.

Workers in the factory's stock control section are required to wear company-issued safety boots but complained that they were poor quality and, at times, only two sizes were offered, meaning they had to wear footwear that was far too small or big.


One worker said new staff would be "crying in pain so much after two or three days" and they had been "in this position for one year, in so much pain". Some warehouse staff have previously complained that ill-fitting boots led to their feet bleeding.

"The safety footwear . . . [is] particularly heavy and uncomfortable," one ex-worker said. It's very poor quality synthetic material." He said his feet were heavily blistered as a result.

A spokeswoman for Boohoo said it stocked safety shoes from size 4 to 13 and had previously required the shoes everywhere on site but had changed that to certain areas because of complaints that the "approved ones are uncomfortable to wear".

Concerns were also raised about the quality of training in a role called "stock control", which involves unloading newly manufactured clothing.

"They take boxes out of the lorries that come. That's what tipping is. But there's no rules on it," one worker said. "There's no training for it so if you get put on that and you've never done it you're thrown in at the deep end, especially if it's busy."

They complained that the boxes can include piles of jeans which are so heavy they require others to help.

"There were some boxes, I couldn't even lift like, full to the brim with jeans, like thick denim jeans," the worker, who has now left Boohoo, said. "Some of them I had to get some people to help. A lot [of] people in my group . . . complained that the back was hurting and stuff."

The Times has also uncovered accusations of workers suffering sexual harassment or misconduct and racial discrimination.

A Pakistani man who had worked in the warehouse for 18 months told an undercover reporter that this summer he had seen a white marshal sending all of the Pakistani workers to the hottest part of the warehouse, while white Bulgarian staff were kept in the cooler part.

"He was sending all the Pakistani people to chamber E. It's hot there, a hot environment there. And he was encouraging Bulgarian people to stay here," he said.


When challenged as to who had ordered this, the marshal claimed it was his manager, Biata, but when the worker checked with her, she said there was no such order.

"I went to him and I said 'who told you?'. He said 'the manager, Biata, this one here, she told me'. [I said] 'I went to her and she's saying [she] didn't and if she wants to change me she will send me a message on the scanner'."

He said the marshal appeared to have been trying to impress a female marshal who was laughing.

"I can see, I can see clearly. It's clear racism," he added. Boohoo said it had reviewed the case and found no evidence to substantiate the claims. The company said it had a zero-tolerance approach to any racist behaviour on site.

Last year, a female member of staff was sexually assaulted by a co-worker in a corner of the warehouse.

The woman had been allowed to return to work after having previously received a payout from Boohoo after she claimed she had been unfairly sacked because she has disabilities.

When the assault happened, the woman told her floor manager but he didn't report it, former colleagues of the woman said. She then told another manager who allegedly accused her of lying. The assailant admitted what had happened when he was later questioned and was sacked.


The woman, who is in her twenties and has left Boohoo, is understood to have been made to sign a gagging order, preventing her from discussing the incident. She declined to speak to The Times.

Boohoo said the incident had been dealt with in accordance with its robust procedures. A spokeswoman said: "Whilst we take these claims very seriously, they are not reflective of the environment at our Burnley warehouse or our colleagues' experiences working for Boohoo."

The company said that "making sure our people are safe and comfortable in their workplace is our highest priority" and claimed staff turnover was falling year-on-year. It said it had taken steps to prepare for the heat during summer months, and had put fans on every floor, provided water fountains and bottles and monitored pregnant women.

The company also has an employee engagement programme and "our colleagues tell us that they are happy with their work environment", the spokeswoman added. She said Boohoo offered generous rates of pay which were above the national living wage and other benefits including subsidised private healthcare".

"We also offer a free on-site gym, a subsidised canteen and multiple break out areas to help colleagues relax," the spokeswoman added.

A representative of the Department for Business said "exploiting vulnerable workers for commercial gain is despicable and the government will not stand for it. The government takes the safety and wellbeing of workers extremely seriously." They said there were clear laws in place to protect workers from racism and sexual harassment.

Obviously given that everyone has individual devices with their own orders and targets that are monitored across a vast site and working twelve hour shifts, there's little opportunity for workers in these sort of sites to interact or try to organise. Having said that I know there's a bit push in the US to unionise Amazon warehouses and there have been wildcat strikes across the UK in Amazon warehouses too - so I hope some unions do find a way to organise because I think it is necessary, reading an article like that. I think there is also something in this sort of workplace where people are clearly being exploited but are also very atomised (the reporter said their two half hour breaks are staggered - most people spend them grabbing dinner or a smoke while watching their phone) leading to conspiratorialism and populist-style appeals, precisely because everything is designed to keep them isolated and in an individual relationship with management.

There's no doubt that is deliberate - and it seems like the gig economy almost a bit like piece work (although here there is a wage). It's another example where I worry that a lot of the big productivity gains and new tech that have made consumer lives easier are basically - "what if we didn't have labour laws, but it's through an app so modern, somehow" :hmm:
Let's bomb Russia!