Brexit and the waning days of the United Kingdom

Started by Josquius, February 20, 2016, 07:46:34 AM

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How would you vote on Britain remaining in the EU?

British- Remain
12 (12%)
British - Leave
7 (7%)
Other European - Remain
21 (21%)
Other European - Leave
6 (6%)
ROTW - Remain
34 (34%)
ROTW - Leave
20 (20%)

Total Members Voted: 98

Sheilbh

It was a reporter from The i. They do quite a lot of reporting on trans issues. It's a bit like asking for his view on Roe (at the same press conference), where it's a comment on something in the news plus a follow up even if not incredibly relevant for a British PM.

I think they're generally seen as more reliably supportive and less open to the "debate" than The Guardian, they used to be part of The Independent (now owned by the Daily Mail group).
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Josquius

15 years ago the independent was the paper. Really good quality, left leaning but very well rounded.

These days they're basically the left wing version of the daily mail. Click bait mongers of the highest order and who cares about what effect it might have on society.
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garbon

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 28, 2022, 04:12:13 AMIt was a reporter from The i. They do quite a lot of reporting on trans issues. It's a bit like asking for his view on Roe (at the same press conference), where it's a comment on something in the news plus a follow up even if not incredibly relevant for a British PM.

I think they're generally seen as more reliably supportive and less open to the "debate" than The Guardian, they used to be part of The Independent (now owned by the Daily Mail group).

The independent had a stance that it was an assist in getting Johnson to throw red meat to his base - particularly when asking him around his thoughts about gender definitions.
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."

I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Sheilbh

Quote from: Josquius on June 28, 2022, 04:15:17 AM15 years ago the independent was the paper. Really good quality, left leaning but very well rounded.

These days they're basically the left wing version of the daily mail. Click bait mongers of the highest order and who cares about what effect it might have on society.
Yes. I think that's sadly probably fair. There's still a few good writers there but it is very click baity lately, just from a more left wing perspective.

I think that model (on both sides) will struggle given cost of living etc. Because the big issues now are ones that require spending money on reporting and expertise, not just quick culture war takes which are probably a little cheaper.

Quote from: garbon on June 28, 2022, 04:21:30 AMThe independent had a stance that it was an assist in getting Johnson to throw red meat to his base - particularly when asking him around his thoughts about gender definitions.
Well it's also red meat to their readers - a reminder of why they hate Johnson.

Plus the FINA decision was in the news especially with Tom Daley's comments, so I can see why you'd ask the PM for their view - especially at a press conference. It'd be a weird choice for an interview line of questioning.
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

Very big, but positive, news that the Met has been placed into special measures by the Inspectorate of Constabulary - in particular the Stephen Port case (I think a new investigation into police conduct has been launched) and both the Sarah Everard murder and policing in response have been flagged as key factors.
Let's bomb Russia!

Sheilbh

#20735
Separately first census data for England and Wales :w00t:

Overall population crew by 6.6% (or 3.5 million) from the last census, but a lot lower (1.4%) in Wales:


Slightly surprisingly (to me) the East of England is the region with the highest growth - also interestingly Cambridge has grown about three times as much as Oxford. As a housing fundamentalist, worth noting they've also built about three times as many new houses - which is an important element of have a successful city. Oxford meanwhile sees far more growth in surrounding local authorities - which probably means if you want to keep the Green Belt as is (and you shouldn't) you need far more density and high rises:


And, obviously, we are ageing :( Over 65s in general up to 18.6% of the population:


Tower Hamlets and Dartford are the two local authorities with most growth (again lots of new buildings - I lived in Tower Hamlets ten years ago and going back it's incredible the amount of change). The largest population decreases were in Kensington and Chelsea and Westminster.

Couple of widgets. See the population change in your area (my borough's basically at the national average):
https://www.ons.gov.uk/visualisations/censuspopulationchange/
And a game:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/playthecensus2021populationmapgame/2022-06-28

Edit: Fixed Oxbridge comparison - also striking on map how much growth is in the Midlands:
https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/bulletins/populationandhouseholdestimatesenglandandwales/census2021
Let's bomb Russia!

Josquius

Fascinating to see Gateshead, Sunderland and South tyneside all with a population decline.

Co Durham though it has a slight increase has greyed a tonne. Massive drop in under 30 numbers and increase in pensioners. Really does back up past hypothesis explaining election results.
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Sheilbh

Fuller details on the Met going into special measures - it feels long overdue at this point and this is damning. Sad that it's necessary for the largest police force in the country <_<
QuoteMet police placed in special measures due to litany of new 'systemic' failings
Exclusive: watchdog's decision follows nearly 70,000 unrecorded crimes and errors in stop and search
New Scotland Yard in London
Vikram Dodd Police and crime correspondent
Tue 28 Jun 2022 21.13 BST
First published on Tue 28 Jun 2022 17.05 BST

The policing inspectorate's unprecedented decision to place the Metropolitan police into special measures followed the uncovering of a litany of new "systemic" failings in fighting crime and serving victims, with tens of thousands of crimes going unrecorded and errors in stop and search.

The decision was taken by Her Majesty's Inspectorate of Constabulary and follows an inspection that found 14 fresh significant failings, coming on top of a flood of scandals "chilling" in their damage to public confidence.

The results of that inspection will be published soon, but can be revealed by the Guardian. They include nearly 70,000 crimes going unrecorded by the Metropolitan police, Britain's biggest force which covers most of London.

Furthermore, the force was found to be failing to meet national standards, and also making errors on stop and search with the grounds for one quarter of stops not recorded, thus thwarting scrutiny of whether they were justifiable.

HMIC also cited a series of scandals: from the murder of Sarah Everard by the serving Met officer Wayne Couzens; the strip-searching of innocent children such as child Q; stop and search controversies such as that of the champion athlete Bianca Williams; and grossly offensive attitudes among officials revealed by messages exchanged between officers at Charing Cross police station.

It also noted the "seemingly incomprehensible failures to recognise and treat appropriately a series of suspicious deaths in the Stephen Port case".

A letter dated 28 June by Matt Parr, from the inspectorate, sets out the full reasons to place the Met in special measures, which is officially called "engage". It was sent to Sir Stephen House, acting commissioner of the Met after the ousting of Cressida Dick in February by the London mayor, Sadiq Khan, who believed she lacked a plan to restore confidence.

The two held crisis talks last Friday where the Met leadership were told they would face the dramatic intervention by HMIC. It is all the more painful for Scotland Yard as many in its leadership felt criticism of the force was unfair and they had a plan to pull the force out of perpetual crisis.

In the letter, seen by the Guardian, Parr details the 14 new failings and areas of concern:
    "Performance falling far short of national standards for the handling of emergency and non-emergency calls, including too many instances of failure to assess vulnerability and repeat victimisation, failures to provide crime prevention advice and failures to properly advise victims on how to preserve evidence."
    "A barely adequate standard of crime recording accuracy, with an estimated 69,000 crimes going unrecorded each year, less than half of crime recorded within 24 hours, and almost no crimes recorded when victims report antisocial behaviour against them."
    Failing to tell some victims investigations into their crime were being dropped.
    Not seeking or considering victims' views.
    Poor supervision of some investigations and failures in public protection.


Furthermore, the force that considers itself a leader in law enforcement was told in the letter there were concerns about "a persistently large backlog of online child abuse referrals", "an insufficient understanding of the force's training requirements" and concerns about how it manages its assets, resources and how the Met understands the demands it faces.

On stop and search, Parr's letter to the acting Met commissioner said: "In roughly a quarter of stop and search cases, failure to record the grounds for the search in sufficient detail to enable an independent judgment to be made as to whether reasonable grounds existed."

The letter says the official policing inspectorate has "for a considerable time ... had substantial and persistent concerns about several aspects of the MPS' [Met's] performance."

It cites the inspection after the Daniel Morgan report into corruption and the Met saying that found serious failings. But the inspectorate adds: "The gravity of the matter is amplified by the presence of a relatively young, inexperienced workforce – a consequence of the MPS' increased recruitment enabled by the police uplift programme."

The Met has been rocked by a series of scandals and public confidence has fallen during the five years Dick was commissioner. Parr wrote: "There are also several examples of high-profile incidents – some recent, some less so – that raise ongoing concerns about the force's performance, or that are likely to have a chilling effect on public trust and confidence in the MPS (and, in some instances, both)."

Parr says the Met has successes, but they are outweighed by the problems: "Nevertheless, the cumulative effect of so many concerns has prompted us to move the force into Engage."

In a statement the Met said: "We recognise the cumulative impact of events and problems that the Met is dealing with. We understand the impact this has had on communities and we share their disappointment.

"We are determined to be a police service Londoners can be proud of. We are talking to the Inspectorate about next steps."

The family of Child Q, whose treatment by the Met caused outrage, said: "The Metropolitan police has shown time and again that it cannot do its job properly and its officers' actions have had life-changing, devastating consequences for innocent people across London, including Child Q. It is no wonder that there is little to no faith left in the Metropolitan police."

Next month the new Met commissioner is expected to be announced and the last two candidates are Sir Mark Rowley, a former head of counter-terrorism who left policing in 2018, and Nick Ephgrave, an assistant commissioner in the Met who led local policing.

Last week they went before a board and will soon be interviewed by the home secretary, Priti Patel, who makes the appointment having regard to the views of the mayor of London.

Both Patel and Khan have longstanding concerns about the Met.

In a statement Patel welcomed the Met being put into special measures, saying: "The process to recruit a new commissioner is well under way and I have made clear that the successful candidate must demonstrate sustained improvements in the Metropolitan police service in order to regain public trust both in London and across the country."

In a statement the policing inspectorate confirmed the special measures for the Met to provide "additional scrutiny and support �to help make improvements".

In a statement Khan said: "The HMIC has raised very serious concerns about the Met's performance and I welcome the additional scrutiny and support that these measures will now bring. Unlike many others, I have long been clear that wide-ranging reforms are urgently needed for the Met to regain the trust and confidence of Londoners – which is so vital to policing by consent."
Let's bomb Russia!

Richard Hakluyt


Josquius

A jibe that would make sense coming from the populist left.
From a tory....
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Sheilbh

Yeah - mad. Started as a gossip piece in the Telegraph which I think Rayner dealt with really well: "It was a pleasure to spend an evening at the opera and to proudly watch Tom (Eisner) who hails from near where I grew up, play violin so beautifully. There shouldn't be any glass ceiling on appreciation of opera and participation in the arts. I'm both a proud trade unionist and a proud enthusiast for this British cultural landmark."

Just sneery - and as Massie points out a bit of a weird jibe for the son of a Czech refugee who worked in M&S - I can only assume it was just to get the "champagne socialism" line in.

And her response was great: "My advice to the Deputy PM is to cut out the snobbery and brush up on his opera. The Marriage of Figaro is the story of a working-class woman who gets the better of a privileged but dim-witted villain"
Let's bomb Russia!

Richard Hakluyt


Sheilbh

Re the rest of the world is not America - but is also very American - I see that in response to the Roe ruling France is looking at a constitutional amendment to protect the right to an abortion.

In the UK there's a backbench campaign to insert a right to abortion amendment into the government's proposed "Bill of Rights" (which is largely about undermining the Human Rights Act) - in the UK it's not a party political issue traditionally so they say (correctly) that any vote should be a free vote on the basis of conscience.

I don't know if the government are entirely ready for the risk that their bill to undermine the Human Rights Act gets loads of backbench amendments expanding the list of rights from beyond the European Convention :lol:
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The Larch

Quote from: Sheilbh on June 30, 2022, 08:29:33 AMRe the rest of the world is not America - but is also very American - I see that in response to the Roe ruling France is looking at a constitutional amendment to protect the right to an abortion.

In the UK there's a backbench campaign to insert a right to abortion amendment into the government's proposed "Bill of Rights" (which is largely about undermining the Human Rights Act) - in the UK it's not a party political issue traditionally so they say (correctly) that any vote should be a free vote on the basis of conscience.

I don't know if the government are entirely ready for the risk that their bill to undermine the Human Rights Act gets loads of backbench amendments expanding the list of rights from beyond the European Convention :lol:

How would that play out in Northern Ireland?

Sheilbh

Quote from: The Larch on June 30, 2022, 08:33:58 AMHow would that play out in Northern Ireland?
Yeah it's not clear and basically, as ever, complicated because even well-meaning MPs don't really understand devolution and that Northern Ireland is seen as very much its own place.

The ECHR is a core part of the Good Friday Agreement and applies at a state level - obviously it does not have a right to abortion and the ECtHR has found that restrictions, incuding bans, of abortion are within the "margin of appreciation" for states. Addint it to the "Bill of Rights" is also counter to the UK approach which has not been rights based - so abortion is a devolved matter generally. But the reason abortion is legal is because there is a law that allows it rather than it being based in a concept of "rights".

When Stormont had last collapsed there was (again backbench-led) legislation that basically legalised abortion in Northern Ireland in a more limited way than GB. The UK government launched a consultation on what abortion law would look like in Northern Ireland - during that time Stormont was able to start operating again so I think they took over some of the drafting/legislating. But that is now in place.

But while abortion is legal but the Northern Irish Department of Health annd Executive are not commissioning or funding it. I think there's been a formal instruction by the Secretary of State, which didn't work. There's been judicial reviews over it. But the Department of Health's position was, I think, that they needed to go through the Northern Ireland Executive (which meant vetos under powersharing) especially for any budgetting. Now there are regulations that create an obligation on the Department of Health to commission and fund abortion services (without any need to take it to the rest of the executive) so there's a legal obligation to actually provide abortion services. We'll see if that gets implemented - but the big issue is practical now.

I believe there's similar practical issues issues in Ireland where a big traditional provider of healthcare are Catholic hospitals etc - and if not that, then health centres on land owned by religious orders who may have restrictive covenants on what the land can be used for. I think there's about 15-20% of GPs who are now providing abortion services but even after legalisation, practically, the Church still has a lingering grip on the delivery of healthcare.
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