and now.... Honduras.

[Agelastus]

Interesting...

Since, apparently, the only clauses of the Honduran Constitution that cannot be amended by the Honduran Congress are those relating to the country's borders, the presidential term limit, and the requirement that administrations must succeed each other in a Republican form of government one has to wonder at Zelaya's motives for trying to set the wheels in motion for the establishment of a Constitutional Convention with his "fourth ballot box", or even his request of a referendum to see if the voters should have the "fourth ballot box". I can't imagine that he wanted to give away territory, so it has to be either the term limit or succession clauses. Meaning, he has immediately fallen foul of article 239 and has no legal option but to resign effective immediately.

Moreover, since a 2/3 majority of the Honduran Congress is required for a referendum to be placed before the people, and the Honduran Congress had voted the equivalent of "No Way, Jose!" then the president is then issuing illegal orders when he orders the army to start distributing ballot boxes for the purpose of his referendum.

While I am a little disturbed that the Honduran Supreme Court issued orders to the Army rather than the civil police to rectify the situation, that is their choice. 

Zelaya has been replaced by a member of his own party, and it appears that Honduras will hold the next presidential electrion on schedule. While the frothings of Chavez and certain others make diverting reading, they seem to have only the vaguest connection to the truth of the situation in Honduras.

[Valmy]

Zelaya has been replaced by a member of his own party, and it appears that Honduras will hold the next presidential electrion on schedule. While the frothings of Chavez and certain others make diverting reading, they seem to have only the vaguest connection to the truth of the situation in Honduras.

I do find it rather frustrating that people are calling an illegal coup what in fact were actions to prevent an illegal coup.

[The Minsky Moment]

You're stretching a bit on your analogy Joan.  The Honduran counterpart of the Senate vote on high crimes and misdemeanors is the Supreme Court decision.

The problem is that the military violated that Supreme Court decision.  The fact the the Court later decided not to undo the fait accompli does not mean the original action was proper.

[The Minsky Moment]

You are so full of shit.

What happened in Honduras is closer to an american president, saying and forcing his way for a 3rd term as the candidate from his party. Completely and ultimately unconstitutional.

I'm pretty sure you would support this president depending of wheather he was democrat or republican.

I know your type. We have plenty of weak lefti jews like you in Israel. They want the palestinians from the territories to vote in our elections. They are always trying to take people like me to court for waging war on Israel's sworn enemies. They are weak, and use the judicial system as a tool to maintain the alpha males like me under their boot.

I don't know your type  - I decided to study law instead of psychiatry.

[The Minsky Moment]

What happened in Honduras is closer to an american president, saying and forcing his way for a 3rd term as the candidate from his party. Completely and ultimately unconstitutional.

Zelaya was actually illegally trying to change the constitution to stay on for a second term.

that was the claim, but Zelaya denied it and his denial was facially plausible.  There never was a determination whether Zelaya's action actually violated Art 239.  In fact the Supreme Court's order failed to even mention that provision.

[The Minsky Moment]

one has to wonder at Zelaya's motives for trying to set the wheels in motion for the establishment of a Constitutional Convention with his "fourth ballot box", or even his request of a referendum to see if the voters should have the "fourth ballot box".  I can't imagine that he wanted to give away territory, so it has to be either the term limit or succession clauses. 

If one has to "wonder" and "imagine about "motives" then its hardly an open and shut case, is it?  Due process of law exists in part so that unelected generals can't go around deposing elected heads of states because of what they are imagining about their motives.

Moreover, since a 2/3 majority of the Honduran Congress is required for a referendum to be placed before the people, and the Honduran Congress had voted the equivalent of "No Way, Jose!" then the president is then issuing illegal orders when he orders the army to start distributing ballot boxes for the purpose of his referendum.

That would justify the army disobeying the order, or local officials simply tossing out the boxes, or ignoring the result of as non-binding (which is exactly what Zelaya termed it).  It does not justify forcible removal of the President without any process of law.

While I am a little disturbed that the Honduran Supreme Court issued orders to the Army rather than the civil police to rectify the situation, that is their choice. 

What I find more troublesome than that is that the Army violated the Court's order, which is kind of a problem for everyone desperately hanging onto the Court's pronouncement for the fig leaf of legitmacy.

[derspiess]

that was the claim, but Zelaya denied it and his denial was facially plausible.  There never was a determination whether Zelaya's action actually violated Art 239. 

Oh, come on.  It plainly did. 

[The Minsky Moment]

that was the claim, but Zelaya denied it and his denial was facially plausible.  There never was a determination whether Zelaya's action actually violated Art 239.

Oh, come on.  It plainly did.

Disagree - a non-binding poll on whether to have a constitutional convention is not the same as a specific proposal to change a particular article.

[sbr]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8335241.stm

Congress considers Honduras deal

The Honduran Congress has been asked to approve a deal which might lead to the return to power of ousted President Manual Zelaya.

The accord has been signed by teams representing Mr Zelaya and the interim government which came to power in June.

The deal would create a power-sharing government and require the bitter political rivals to recognise the result of November's presidential poll.

Meanwhile, the US is lifting visa curbs on Honduras after Friday's agreement.

The sanction was imposed amid international condemnation of Mr Zelaya's removal.
   
But officials said the US embassy would start issuing visas again on Monday.

The president was forced out of the country on 28 June.

His critics said he was seeking to amend the constitution to remove the current one-term limit on serving as president, and pave the way for his re-election.

The BBC's Central America correspondent Stephen Gibbs says the Honduran congress - which in June voted to remove Mr Zelaya from power - now looks set to be instrumental in bringing him back.

It will vote after the Supreme Court gives a non-binding opinion on the deal, news agencies report.

No clear timetable has been laid out for when the vote will actually happen, but the ousted president has indicated that he expects the entire process to take about a week.

Mr Zelaya is making it clear that until every detail of his reinstatement has been pinned down, he will not be leaving the capital's Brazilian embassy, where he is currently sheltering, our correspondent says.

Many Hondurans are, however, already expressing relief that the crisis which has overshadowed their country for the last four months might almost be over.

Our correspondent says the key detail of the arrangement is that Mr Zelaya comes back to power, so that Honduras' scheduled November elections - to decide who will replace him - are therefore deemed valid.

But it is not perhaps the comeback which President Zelaya once promised, our correspondent adds.

From exile he had suggested that a popular uprising would restore him to office.

In the end, it seems that more mundane economic realities, and some straight talking by American diplomats, persuaded the government which forced him out, to relent, our correspondent says.

[grumbler]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8335241.stm

Congress considers Honduras deal

The Honduran Congress has been asked to approve a deal which might lead to the return to power of ousted President Manual Zelaya.

The accord has been signed by teams representing Mr Zelaya and the interim government which came to power in June.

The deal would create a power-sharing government and require the bitter political rivals to recognise the result of November's presidential poll.

Meanwhile, the US is lifting visa curbs on Honduras after Friday's agreement.

The sanction was imposed amid international condemnation of Mr Zelaya's removal.
   
But officials said the US embassy would start issuing visas again on Monday.

The president was forced out of the country on 28 June.

His critics said he was seeking to amend the constitution to remove the current one-term limit on serving as president, and pave the way for his re-election.

The BBC's Central America correspondent Stephen Gibbs says the Honduran congress - which in June voted to remove Mr Zelaya from power - now looks set to be instrumental in bringing him back.

It will vote after the Supreme Court gives a non-binding opinion on the deal, news agencies report.

No clear timetable has been laid out for when the vote will actually happen, but the ousted president has indicated that he expects the entire process to take about a week.

Mr Zelaya is making it clear that until every detail of his reinstatement has been pinned down, he will not be leaving the capital's Brazilian embassy, where he is currently sheltering, our correspondent says.

Many Hondurans are, however, already expressing relief that the crisis which has overshadowed their country for the last four months might almost be over.

Our correspondent says the key detail of the arrangement is that Mr Zelaya comes back to power, so that Honduras' scheduled November elections - to decide who will replace him - are therefore deemed valid.

But it is not perhaps the comeback which President Zelaya once promised, our correspondent adds.

From exile he had suggested that a popular uprising would restore him to office.

In the end, it seems that more mundane economic realities, and some straight talking by American diplomats, persuaded the government which forced him out, to relent, our correspondent says.

Wow, that SUCKS for those who were insisting that Zelaya had been legally deposed and exiled - as well as those who insisted that Obama and Clinton, by going along with every credible foreign NGO and government (and MM, btw) were incompetent.

Good to see that the Honduran Congress isn't as blinded by ideology as many Languishites are.

[Hansmeister]

Wow, that SUCKS for those who were insisting that Zelaya had been legally deposed and exiled - as well as those who insisted that Obama and Clinton, by going along with every credible foreign NGO and government (and MM, btw) were incompetent.

Good to see that the Honduran Congress isn't as blinded by ideology as many Languishites are.

it sure sucks that the Obamateur celebrates his first forign policy victory by undermining democracy in honduras to reinstate an anti-amrican thug to power in order to appease Hugo Chavez.  Too bad for if the Law Library of Congress has found that his removal from power was legal and constitutional http://www.mcclatchydc.com/257/story/78045.html good for them to refuse to retract their findings when attacked by John Kerry.  All we had to do to force Honduras to reinstate their unpopular and criminal president was to announce that we wouldn't recognize the election in November otherwise.  Bravo, what a victory for democracy!  The Obamateur loved the Iranian election and was opposed to free elections in Honduras.  Welcome to the anti-liberal world view of Obama.

[Admiral Yi]

The fact that Iran has not given in to international pressure on their nuclear program shows they were right all along.

[grumbler]

it sure sucks that the Obamateur celebrates his first forign policy victory by undermining democracy in honduras to reinstate an anti-amrican thug to power in order to appease Hugo Chavez.   

  Classic Hanian hysteria!  excellent, my man.  Keep it up; absurdity never gets old when you do it.

Too bad for if the Law Library of Congress has found that his removal from power was legal and constitutional http://www.mcclatchydc.com/257/story/78045.html good for them to refuse to retract their findings when attacked by John Kerry. 

I asked a librarian, and she said your librarian is wrong.  I guess the librarian consensus won't be forthcoming soon, so let's leave librarians out of the discussion.

All we had to do to force Honduras to reinstate their unpopular and criminal president was to announce that we wouldn't recognize the election in November otherwise.  Bravo, what a victory for democracy!  The Obamateur loved the Iranian election and was opposed to free elections in Honduras.  Welcome to the anti-liberal world view of Obama.

I don't understand why and when you announced that you would not recognize the November 29th elections.  Not even the Obama Administration did that.  I think we should call you "The Hamateur" from now on, as you are even more anti-liberal than Obama.

[grumbler]

The fact that Iran has not given in to international pressure on their nuclear program shows they were right all along.

[Hansmeister]

I don't understand why and when you announced that you would not recognize the November 29th elections.  Not even the Obama Administration did that.  I think we should call you "The Hamateur" from now on, as you are even more anti-liberal than Obama.

You fail again.

U.S. May Not Recognize Results of Honduran Vote
 
Honduras' interim President Roberto Micheletti,attends a meeting of workers at the presidential house in Tegucigalpa, Tuesday, Aug. 25, 2009. Foreign ministers from seven nations launched a direct, high-profile attempt Monday to persuade Honduras' interim government to restore ousted President Manuel Zelaya. (AP Photo/Fernando Antonio)
By Mary Beth Sheridan
Washington Post Staff Writer
Friday, September 4, 2009

The U.S. government on Thursday toughened its stance against Honduras's coup leaders and supporters, threatening to put them "in a box" by not recognizing the winner of a presidential election set for November.

The de facto government had hoped that the election would provide an end to the crisis that has gripped the Central American country since the ouster of President Manuel Zelaya on June 28. The balloting had been scheduled well before Zelaya was detained and whisked out of the country by the military.

But U.S. officials said for the first time that they would continue to shun the country unless Honduran leaders went back to a negotiated plan that would allow the return of Zelaya with limited powers until the expiration of his term in December.

"Based on conditions as they currently exist, we cannot recognize the results of this election. So for the de facto regime, they're now in a box," said State Department spokesman Philip J. Crowley. "And they will have to sign on to the San Jose accords to get out of the box." He was referring to the plan for Zelaya's return, which was negotiated in the Costa Rican capital.


The announcement amounted to a gamble that the threat would finally force the de facto government to back down. So far, that government, led by longtime congressman Roberto Micheletti, has resisted intense international pressure, both economic and political. Its members argue that Zelaya's removal was legal because he had violated the constitution by organizing a referendum that could have allowed him to evade the one-term limit for the presidency.

But the reasons for the coup supporters' vehemence go deeper: They fear that the leftist Zelaya would have introduced the socialist-style agenda promoted by Venezuelan President Hugo Chávez, a Zelaya ally and leader of an anti-American bloc in the hemisphere.

"This is a tough call, because I think there are no white hats in this story," said Ted Piccone, a specialist in U.S.-Latin American relations at the Brookings Institution. "But there is a clear bright line around the militarily forced exile of a democratically elected president, and so that has to be addressed."

However, he and other analysts said, if the interim government does not change its stance, the decision not to recognize the election could only deepen the crisis.

The State Department's action "limits our options, a violation of the first law of diplomacy, by taking off the table the one means by which the crisis could naturally be resolved," said Eric Farnsworth, a Latin America expert at the Council of the Americas, a U.S.-based business group.

The announcement came as the State Department also formally terminated about $30 million in aid to the Honduran government that had been suspended. Authorities also said they were examining revoking more visas of Hondurans who participated in, or supported, the coup.

The announcement triggered new opposition from Republicans in Congress who have denounced the Obama administration's policy on Honduras and held up some diplomatic appointments in protest.

"The U.S. approach to friends and foes is completely backwards. While appeasing the enemies of freedom worldwide, we punish those in Honduras struggling to preserve the rule of law, fundamental liberties, and democratic values," Rep. Ileana Ros-Lehtinen (Fla.) said in a statement.

The U.S. moves were applauded by Sen. John F. Kerry (D-Mass.), chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee, who has encouraged a negotiated settlement. "The coup regime has engaged in undemocratic practices that cast a dark shadow over elections scheduled for November. Those elections will lack legitimacy unless the regime embraces and faithfully implements the San Jose Accord," he said in a statement.

Major Latin American countries have said they would not recognize the results of the November election unless the coup is reversed.