Star Wars Discussion Thread contains spoilers (and may contain nuts)

[lustindarkness]

My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight.  The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. 

You want to turn it into the X Men movies?

[Malthus]

My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight.  The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. 

I dunno - the prequels start out with the universe being at peace under the benevolent guidance of the Jedi.  It is only once the Jedi are killed off that the evil galactic empire forms.

I don't know the mythology/history of the Star Wars universe in depth, but isn't it the case that the downfall of the Jedi was inherent in the Force? Too much good is just as 'out of balance' as too much evil, so if the Jedi (or other "good" force users) take over the place, it is inevitable that some will turn to the Dark Side to 'restore balance'.

[Malthus]

My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight.  The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. 

You want to turn it into the X Men movies?

Not particularly. What care I if the Star Wars universe is a terrible place to live in? War and destruction makes more entertaining movies than peaceful progress. 

I just fond it amusing that no-one in-universe appears to see that "good" Jedi are just inevitable breeding grounds for "bad" force users. Their kids have a definite tendency to 'turn to the dark side', which seems built-in to the whole concept of 'the Force'.

[Berkut]

My overall take: people in the Star Wars universe would be better off lynching all users/believers in the Force on sight.  The Force always seems to seek "balance", meaning a continually war (involving the destruction of whole planets no less) between the "light" and the dark", and people keep switching sides - moreover, ability to use the Force is evidently partly genetic, or at least, runs in families. The whole fight is very much a family business among a few families that the rest of the universe gets caught up in - if they just killed off Force-users, good or bad doesn't matter - then there could be some sort of peace. 

I dunno - the prequels start out with the universe being at peace under the benevolent guidance of the Jedi.  It is only once the Jedi are killed off that the evil galactic empire forms.

I don't know the mythology/history of the Star Wars universe in depth, but isn't it the case that the downfall of the Jedi was inherent in the Force? Too much good is just as 'out of balance' as too much evil, so if the Jedi (or other "good" force users) take over the place, it is inevitable that some will turn to the Dark Side to 'restore balance'.

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The ensuing war lasted a really, really, really long time. Waxed and waned, lots of people died, but eventually the Jedi won as a result of Sith infighting, and the galaxy saw a thousand years of peace and prosperity under jedi guidance, and it was believed that the Sith had been wiped out.

That sets up the framework for Ep. 1.

So the "Force" itself is truly neutral. It is just a tool that can be used.

[viper37]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

[Berkut]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The Jedi use the Force for good - they might SAY they "serve" the Force, but that is rather nonsensical, since the Force is not really animate. It is an attempt to *define* themselves as the only legit force users, since it implies that the Force is "good", and since they are "good", they are serving it.

If this were actually true, then it would not be the case that dark side users would be so successful, and they seem pretty darn successful. The "Force" could not care less how it is used, since it cannot care at all, except insofar as it is (apparently) a creation of living beings.

The Jedi have a good argument, since they are operating from the standpoint that the Force is a function of life, life is good, hence the force is good. But saying they "serve the Force" is only very narrowly meaningful - you basically have to be a Jedi to begin with for that standpoint to make any sense at all.

[Barrister]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The Jedi use the Force for good - they might SAY they "serve" the Force, but that is rather nonsensical, since the Force is not really animate. It is an attempt to *define* themselves as the only legit force users, since it implies that the Force is "good", and since they are "good", they are serving it.

If this were actually true, then it would not be the case that dark side users would be so successful, and they seem pretty darn successful. The "Force" could not care less how it is used, since it cannot care at all, except insofar as it is (apparently) a creation of living beings.

The Jedi have a good argument, since they are operating from the standpoint that the Force is a function of life, life is good, hence the force is good. But saying they "serve the Force" is only very narrowly meaningful - you basically have to be a Jedi to begin with for that standpoint to make any sense at all.

What "the Force" is is somewhat malleable within Star Wars, but it does seem to have a more metaphysical/spiritual side, and is not merely a, well, force of nature that can be used to whatever you might want.  It seems roughly equivalent to taoism I think, and it's idea of qi.

[Berkut]

I think what it is seems pretty well defined - it is a force created by living beings that somehow connects them with one another, and that can be manipulated and used by some.

It is certainly spiritual, and semi-religious. See that "dead" spirits of force users manifesting themselves, for example.

But I've never seen any reason to believe that the Jedi are right, and THEIR user of the force is in service to it, while dark users are perverting it.

[Tonitrus]

One might say even the "good" force users also pervert it by manipulating people's minds for their own benefit. 

[FunkMonk]

One might say even the "good" force users alos pervert it by manipulating people's minds for their own benefit. 

A Sith would say that, wouldn't they? 

[Malthus]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...

[derspiess]

Yeah, seems like the Sith particularly seem to come back no matter how many times they are snuffed out.  Jedi also I guess, but it seems like more of a struggle for them.

[Berkut]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...

I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.

It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.

[Barrister]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...

I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.

It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.

Not necessarily,  "balance" is important in taoism.

But what you don't typically see is balance between good and evil.  Although zoroastrianism might come close, I don't  know if they have a notion of balance.

[Berkut]

IIRC, the backstory is that originally there were not Jedi and Sith, just force users. Some kind of schism occurred, and the two "sides" were established. The Jedi using the force for good, the Sith for evil (over-generalized).

The Jedi serve the Force, the Sith use the Force for their own advantage, seeking power above all else.  The Force is simply a tool to achieve more power for the Sith.  This is how they see it.

The notion of "balance" between good and evil seems important in this mythology. It would appear that the Force somehow seeks or actively encourages this "balance". That would indicate Sith and Jedi are both somehow patterns set by the very nature of the Force ...

I think the entire "balance" idea is something that Lucas pulled out of his ass without thinking about it.

It is, on its face, absolutely terrible as a moral or ethical concept.

Not necessarily,  "balance" is important in taoism.

I think it is rather obvious I was not talking about balance outside the scope under discussion.

You might as well respond "Not necessarily, balance is important when riding a bike!"

But what you don't typically see is balance between good and evil.  Although zoroastrianism might come close, I don't  know if they have a notion of balance.

The idea that balance between good and evil is desirable, is by definition evil.