Donald Trump Calls for Barring Muslims From Entering U.S.

[Malthus]

I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals.  They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.

I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.

Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.

Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.

I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada.   Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.

Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle.  All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.  But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.

Also significant to note that the Conservatives were still willing to bring in Syrian refugees (only less and slower - though, as we've argued elsewhere, the Liberals promised more than they could actually deliver  ) - in short, that despite the obnoxious Conservative "snitch line" proposal etc., there is no actual mainstream political home for exclusionary sentiment in Canada.

[Barrister]

I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada.   Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.

Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle.  All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.  But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.

If you go back to the election though the Conservatives poll numbers went up during the few days we focused on Syrian refugees.

The Liberals won, and yes the Liberals promised to bring in more Syrian refugees, but I don't think that you can say the Liberals won because they promised to bring in more refugees.

Canada never had a McCarthy or a Trump, but the US never had a Trudeau either.  Not Justin, but Pierre - imposing the War Measures Act.

[Valmy]

All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.

We are a strangely divided culture. It is like those people amazed that Nixon won so decisively in 1972 when everybody they knew hated him.

Now we are even more so. The news and information fed to the right wingers here is simply dramatically different than what you are getting. It would take a long time being immersed in their bubble to understand where they are coming from. But it can happen...see Syt's family.

[The Brain]

Bring back Manlius Torquatus.

[alfred russel]

I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada.   Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.

Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle.  All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.  But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.

The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.

I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.

[Valmy]

The far right is surging in much of Europe.

Yeah so much for the glowing balls of light.

[Berkut]

I think the success of Trump's demagoguery indicates that a disturbingly large portion of this country does not truly believe in its ideals.  They believe in the freedom to do what they want, but couldn't care less about the freedom of others unless it personally affects them.

I've been saying this for some time, and it is not just "this country" by any means.

Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want.

Most everyone is all for ideals exactly as far as any particular implementation of those ideals perfectly aligns with how they think things ought to be, and not a millimeter further.

Yes but I am quite sure that has been true for 99.99% of human population since, well, forever.

I think it is true for much of the human population, but I don't think it is true for 99%, nor is it static by any means.

After all, the concept of "personal liberty" itself, and the states role in guaranteeing it, has a history to it - it is not static.

I think the extent that people practically (or even just theoretically) buy into it is variable, and can (and needs to be) influenced by culture, history, politics, society.

I absolutely reject the idea that you seem to be suggesting that there is nothing to be done, and we just have to accept it.

[crazy canuck]

I think what is happening in the US cannot be generalized to other countries and is certainly very different from what is happening in Canada.   Here the Liberals won the last national election on a platform of bringing in more Syrian refugees in greater numbers and more quickly than the then governing Conservatives. Since we share very similar cultures in other respects I think one has to examine what it is that is creating this difference.

Frankly, I don't know the answer to that riddle.  All the Americans I know personally are very similar to all the Canadians I know, sharing the same or similar faults and virtues.  But Canada has never had its McCarthy or its Trump.

The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.

I also don't think the liberal success in the last Canadian election had much to do with the respective platforms on Syrian refugees, but even so, you are comparing apples to oranges. What helps someone win a general election is not necessarily the same as what gets someone to ~30% in a conservative primary poll. The smart money is on the Democrats winning the general election, so what you are saying about how the party promoting relatively more syrian refugees is likely to be the same scenario in the US.

In relation to your first point, I think both you and BB are wrong about the Canadian election but I don't want to get sidetracked in this thread.  Berkut's point that I disagreed with is that "Very few people hold to any ideals beyond even a cursory impingement on what they want".  I think that is demonstrably false.  And it appears from your post that you think that is so too since you believe that a majority of Americans will vote for the Democrats who do promote more Syrian refugees (btw I don't know if the Democrats actually do that but if you say they do then I will accept that as true).

My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had.  As Malthus correctly pointed out, even though the Conservatives ran a platform based on fear of the other even they were still willing to bring in Syrian refugees, just in smaller numbers and much more slowly.  The reason why it is instructive to compare American and Canadian political culture is that in almost all other respects our cultures are very similar.

[Gups]

The far right is surging in much of Europe. I think Le Pen's party may have gotten the most votes in the regional french elections, for instance. I think there are significant analogues in other countries.

[/quote]

I don't know. There are significant differences between all of these parties though. The only thing they share is hostility to the EU and to immigration (particularly as one allows the other). While UKIP is old school Thatcherite and free trade, Le Pen's domestic policies are virtually socialist and protectionist. Both UKIP and FN have sought to move to the centre to gain support.  The opposite seems to be happening to the GOP, presumably because of the dynamics of the primaries.

[Valmy]

I don't know. There are significant differences between all of these parties though. The only thing they share is hostility to the EU and to immigration (particularly as one allows the other)

Right but that is what we are discussing. Trump's economic policies have barely moved the needle.

[grumbler]

A parliamentary petition has gotten more than 100000 signatures and thus qualifies for discussion in the British parliament, the petition is to ban Trump from the UK for hate speech.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003

He couldn't buy the kind of positive* publicity this would give him.


* as far as the Republican base is concerned

[grumbler]

...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had... 

Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues.  Réal Caouette was one, for instance.

[Grey Fox]

A great man, just like our Troll Trump.

[crazy canuck]

...My point of comparing the Canadian experience with the American experience is that we have never had the kind of demagogue Americans have had... 

Yes, Canada has, of course, had such demagogues.  Réal Caouette was one, for instance.

Demagogue means something different than you think it does then.

Caouette fought for bilingualism in the House of Commons, winning a symbolic victory when he got the Parliament's restaurant to produce bilingual menus.[1] In this, he anticipated the official bilingualism policy that would later be put into effect by Pierre Trudeau.

[derspiess]

A parliamentary petition has gotten more than 100000 signatures and thus qualifies for discussion in the British parliament, the petition is to ban Trump from the UK for hate speech.

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/114003

He couldn't buy the kind of positive* publicity this would give him.


* as far as the Republican base is concerned

Hell, I dislike him a little less as a result.