Facebook Follies of Friends and Families

[The Minsky Moment]

It's the job of line agencies to obey lawful commands

Are the people in the line being given lawful commands?

That's somewhat of black box because we aren't in the rooms where commands are being given and don't have access to all the internal memos.  But you can see the outputs and the outputs don't appear to be consistent with "lawful commands".  Countless episodes of officers physically assaulting protestors doing nothing other than taking videos and shouting.  That is not lawful. Physical entry to houses without warrants or exigent circumstances.  Stops and vandalism of vehicles without probable cause.  Impeding medical care for victims.

Even a lawful agency could do a few of things of these things, due to human error.  But it's a lot of human error to explain away.  If the two possibilities are roughly (1) ICE is being told to scrupulously obey the law and exercise their restraint while doing their job as effectively and professionally as possible, and (2) ICE is being told to maximize the quantity of detentions and that any violations of rights will be winked away, the evidence overwhelmingly indicates the latter.  We really don't have to guess as Vance and Noem made clear public statements that ICE agents enjoyed total immunity for their official conduct.  That's what you say and do if #2 is in effect, not #1.

We also don't have to guess because the box isn't completely black; there was a leak of an internal memo and lo and behold the commands given were not lawful.  They are blatantly unconstitutional.  It authorizes ICE officers to enter residences without a judicial warrant, in flagrant violation of the 4th Amendment.  We've seen the output from that, as agents forcibly enter residences without proper authorization, such as the now infamous ChongLy Thao incident.  And therefore when we see other bad output, it's reasonable to infer that there are other unlawful commands out there that haven't leaked.

[Admiral Yi]

I don't know Joan.

[mongers]

I don't know Joan.

Yi, that's a bit of a 'cop out' reply, JR's made the effort to write a several paragraph reply; you could try addressing the key issues he's highlighted.

[Admiral Yi]

Yi, that's a bit of a 'cop out' reply, JR's made the effort to write a several paragraph reply; you could try addressing the key issues he's highlighted.

Mongers, I'll listen to lectures from a couple people. You're not one.

[mongers]

Yi, that's a bit of a 'cop out' reply, JR's made the effort to write a several paragraph reply; you could try addressing the key issues he's highlighted.

Mongers, I'll listen to lectures from a couple people. You're not one.

Doubling down on the cop-out I see.

[DGuller]

Yi, that's a bit of a 'cop out' reply, JR's made the effort to write a several paragraph reply; you could try addressing the key issues he's highlighted.

Mongers, I'll listen to lectures from a couple people. You're not one.

Am I one of those people?  If so, I had the same reaction as mongers.  Minsky started a conversation and you appeared to brush it off.

[Tamas]

One thing in Yi's defense: being the only one here with a Monoriou-esque view on the fascist takeover, he is clearly not in the mood to defend that position against the rest of the forum (ie all four of us). I don't understand nor I have patience for his take on this and similar issues but I do understand the reluctance to spend time arguing with us. So I will oblige him.

[Zoupa]

The thing is he insists on nitpicking and devil advocating, but does not reciprocate when presented with counterpoints. Feels like talking with a teenager, which is why I've largely stopped.