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Started by Syt, December 06, 2015, 01:55:02 PM

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Maximus

I would consider keeping someone enslaved to be enslaving them. I don't think that's at all inaccurate.

dps

Quote from: Maximus on September 25, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
I would consider keeping someone enslaved to be enslaving them. I don't think that's at all inaccurate.

I agree, but it's still inaccurate to say that Americans enslaved a whole race.  Not all black Africans were enslaved, and not all of the ones who were enslaved were brought to America.

Maximus

Well you could argue that it's automatically inaccurate by virtue of the fact that races don't exist, but that would be unhelpful. Beyond that, the word "race" can mean almost whatever you want it to mean. Speaking of African-Americans as a race in this context is no stretch.

Oexmelin

Quote from: Valmy on September 25, 2017, 06:07:26 PM
Just what I said. It is inaccurate and I think removes it from its context.

Yes. I never said anybody was a victim of some West African thing. That was just a personal attack on me...so yeah.

It is not inaccurate. Keeping someone enslaved is enslaving them. What kind of context does it remove? What's the purpose of the distinction between those who capture and those who maintain in slavery?

Thus my bringing up West Africa - which I fail to see how it can be construed as a personal attack. People who usually bring up the distinction between those who captured men and sold them into slavery and those who maintained people in chattel slavery often do so in order to diffuse blame and responsibility, at least in part, to "Africans". And it is still the vibe I get from your post. It may have been motivated by a genuine desire for historical nitpicking, but it takes place in a context where such deflections are meant to establish dubious similarities, and silence protest. So I reacted strongly, because I think this sort of distinction doesn't bring clarity to the matter (if the matter is indeed the inner workings of the Atlantic slave trade, and not some sort of ahistorical, eternal "slavery").
Que le grand cric me croque !

grumbler

Quote from: garbon on September 25, 2017, 06:01:21 PM
I'm not really sure what Valmy is angling at here.

I'm not really sure why you find his clear statements so baffling.

If one protests against history, then one's protest will never end, because its cause will never change.  That's not rocket science.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: Maximus on September 25, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
I would consider keeping someone enslaved to be enslaving them. I don't think that's at all inaccurate.

That's playing semantic games.

The problem with western and Muslim slavery, as opposed to actual (non-romanticized) African or even ancient slavery, is that it was chattel slavery.  Slaves weren't just a lower class, they weren't even people.

But, as Valmy has noted, that's the past and cannot be changed.  There is a great deal about the present that can be changed, but, if Chris Silber is right, "an entire race" can never celebrate American history because the past cannot be changed, and that is what he RAGEs against.  That poor "entire race" is just fucked, plain and simple.  Doomed to live in a land whose history and individual accomplishments (even if it is their own) cannot be celebrate just because it cannot be changed.

Yeah, whatever.  He and his ilk will eventually die off and leave the stage for those who can appreciate history for what it is, not for what it can never be.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

grumbler

Quote from: dps on September 25, 2017, 06:35:35 PM
Quote from: Maximus on September 25, 2017, 06:15:43 PM
I would consider keeping someone enslaved to be enslaving them. I don't think that's at all inaccurate.

I agree, but it's still inaccurate to say that Americans enslaved a whole race.  Not all black Africans were enslaved, and not all of the ones who were enslaved were brought to America.

And some of those doing the enslaving (even in the US) were members of that "entire race."  So that "entire race"'s history can never be applauded, either.
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!

Ed Anger

Grumbler remembers the slave glut after Alesia.

Pepperidge Farms remembers also
Stay Alive...Let the Man Drive

CountDeMoney

 :lol:  -2 on the Berkut Trigger Activation table.

Razgovory

Quote from: grumbler on September 25, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 25, 2017, 06:01:21 PM
I'm not really sure what Valmy is angling at here.

I'm not really sure why you find his clear statements so baffling.

If one protests against history, then one's protest will never end, because its cause will never change.  That's not rocket science.


Well, now I don't know what you are on about either.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Razgovory

#4990
Quote from: Oexmelin on September 25, 2017, 07:12:00 PM
Quote from: Valmy on September 25, 2017, 06:07:26 PM
Just what I said. It is inaccurate and I think removes it from its context.

Yes. I never said anybody was a victim of some West African thing. That was just a personal attack on me...so yeah.

It is not inaccurate. Keeping someone enslaved is enslaving them. What kind of context does it remove? What's the purpose of the distinction between those who capture and those who maintain in slavery?

Thus my bringing up West Africa - which I fail to see how it can be construed as a personal attack. People who usually bring up the distinction between those who captured men and sold them into slavery and those who maintained people in chattel slavery often do so in order to diffuse blame and responsibility, at least in part, to "Africans". And it is still the vibe I get from your post. It may have been motivated by a genuine desire for historical nitpicking, but it takes place in a context where such deflections are meant to establish dubious similarities, and silence protest. So I reacted strongly, because I think this sort of distinction doesn't bring clarity to the matter (if the matter is indeed the inner workings of the Atlantic slave trade, and not some sort of ahistorical, eternal "slavery").


Do Africans share blame and responsibility?
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

Eddie Teach

Quote from: grumbler on September 25, 2017, 08:12:19 PM
Yeah, whatever.  He and his ilk will eventually die off and leave the stage for those who can appreciate history for what it is, not for what it can never be.

Will this happen when the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars?
To sleep, perchance to dream. But in that sleep of death, what dreams may come?

garbon

Quote from: grumbler on September 25, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 25, 2017, 06:01:21 PM
I'm not really sure what Valmy is angling at here.

I'm not really sure why you find his clear statements so baffling.

If one protests against history, then one's protest will never end, because its cause will never change.  That's not rocket science.

Who is protesting history?
"I've never been quite sure what the point of a eunuch is, if truth be told. It seems to me they're only men with the useful bits cut off."
I drank because I wanted to drown my sorrows, but now the damned things have learned to swim.

Razgovory

Quote from: garbon on September 26, 2017, 01:25:02 AM
Quote from: grumbler on September 25, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
Quote from: garbon on September 25, 2017, 06:01:21 PM
I'm not really sure what Valmy is angling at here.

I'm not really sure why you find his clear statements so baffling.

If one protests against history, then one's protest will never end, because its cause will never change.  That's not rocket science.

Who is protesting history?


Tim.  Every time he buys one of those Turtledove novels.
I've given it serious thought. I must scorn the ways of my family, and seek a Japanese woman to yield me my progeny. He shall live in the lands of the east, and be well tutored in his sacred trust to weave the best traditions of Japan and the Sacred South together, until such time as he (or, indeed his house, which will periodically require infusion of both Southern and Japanese bloodlines of note) can deliver to the South it's independence, either in this world or in space.  -Lettow April of 2011

Raz is right. -MadImmortalMan March of 2017

grumbler

Quote from: Eddie Teach on September 25, 2017, 11:16:56 PM
Will this happen when the moon is in the 7th house and Jupiter aligns with Mars?

In the year 2555
The future is all around us, waiting, in moments of transition, to be born in moments of revelation. No one knows the shape of that future or where it will take us. We know only that it is always born in pain.   -G'Kar

Bayraktar!